Why the Jedi frustrate me...

Cafe Society
1

Disclaimer: I am well aware that this is a completely fictional universe, and that it is wholly subject to the whim of George Lucas, along with his imagination, or lack thereof. I fully realize that continuity and internal consistency have never been traits of this franchise, and I understand that much of what goes on in these films is done for dramatic license, or to create a visually stimulating scene. Having said that…

I was watching Episodes I and II last night, in preparation for Episode III tomorrow. As each minute went by, I found myself getting more and more exasperated with the Jedi (or, more importantly, how they were written) in these films.

I loved seeing all the lightsaber duels, and the first time I saw Episode I, I reveled in them. I particularly liked the way that Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan had 360° situational awareness; periodically they would stab backward at a droid coming up behind them. But then, as I was watching the first scene in the Naboo hangar, I realized what a waste of time, and what a needlessly dangerous situation our two heroes put themselves in. Droids have nothing at their disposal to counter the Force, so why run through the hangar slicing and dicing when you could simply push them all out the big gaping doorway at the end of the hangar?

I know that Darth Maul is a real badass, and you can count me among the people who wish the character had stuck around longer, but come on - double-bladed saber or not, a Jedi Master and a gifted apprentice, acting in concert, couldn’t take this guy out? And while we’re on the subject of Darth Maul, if I were Qui-Gon Jinn, I would be doing a little haunting of Obi-Wan from whatever afterlife I went to. While Jinn was beginning to get his ass kicked and Obi-Wan was caught behind that energy field, couldn’t he have helped anyway? Pulled Maul’s feet out from under him with the Force? Switched off Maul’s lightsaber? Pushed him toward the pit (when, oh when is Lucas going to tire of that cliche)? I suppose we can chalk this up to Obi-Wan’s youth and inexperience, but if I was Qui-Gon I’d still be pissed.

After Count Dooku and Yoda duel in Episode II, Dooku brings a large chunk of the ceiling down, which chunk Yoda “catches” and casts aside, saving Obi-Wan and Anakin from being crushed. All well and good. But, come on, as long as you were throwing that chunk of rock away, don’t you think you could have tossed it at Dooku’s ship, cutting off that avenue of escape?

It is my understanding that one of the early duels in Episode III is between Obi-Wan and General Grievous, the cyborg jedi killer that wields multiple lightsabers from multiple arms. This would seem to be a challenging opponent to duel, so why duel him at all? There’s no indications that he’s a force user, so why not just lift him into the air, carry him to the nearest airlock, and send him away? Or hold him until help comes? Or pull him apart piece by piece?

I have heard some criticism of Genndy Tartakovsky’s “Clone Wars” cartoons, regarding the massive damage that a single Jedi does to droid armies. IMHO, Tartakovsky got it right (like when Yoda sends the various droid landing craft crashing into one another), and Lucas has been needlessly hobbling the Jedi.

Whew, that feels better. My wife is not a Star Wars geek, so I needed to vent to someone.

2

In the last duel between Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul, when they first run into the room with the pit, Jinn and Maul wind up separated by one of those energy fields. I really liked the contrast between the two combatants. Maul paces, clearly itching to get on with the ass-kicking he wants to deliver, like a tiger in a cage. Jinn realizes that nothing is going to happen for a moment, so he uses that time to meditate/gather/strength/calm himself. I thought that was a nice visual contrast between the light and dark sides of the Force.

Doesn’t make up for the rest, though.

3

I agree. If Yoda’s not full of it when he talks about size mattering not why shouldn’t a Jedi Master be able to take on an army lightsaberless?

Quite frankly, if the Jedi in Episode 2 are the best they have to offer I’m only surprised a Sith lord didn’t kick their asses sooner.

Also, while I hadn’t thought of it before, the inconsitencies in their use of telekinesis is surely going to bug me when I watch Ep 3 now! Grr…

4

Don’t for get, by Episode II, the Jedi have reduced Force powers due to the resurgence of the Dark Side. Or was that only their ability to read the future?

5

It could be because “a Jedi uses his knowledge for defense, never for attack.” In other words, you can’t just push a platoon of droids out the door, because that would be attacking. You can, however, push one or two droids that’re attacking you. (Yeah, I’m reaching, but the Jedi seem pedantic enough that this could be an important distinction.)

6

I think maybe the nature of Jedi fighting is reactive, not proactive. So a Jedi would protect *himself[/] / others from droids, but he’s not going to go overboard with it.

I think with the Yoda vs Dooku fight, obviously Yoda was more concerned with protecting his fellow Jedi than catching Dooku. Just a hunch.

7

If you make your protagonists almost undefeatable and all-powerful, then you have no way to craft a good story.

The Clone Wars cartoons are intermediate tales, there is no actual complete story being told there, and it is using typical cartoon exaggeration.

The truth of how the jedi should be portrayed is closer to the movies than the cartoon, especially as the Jedi are losing their powers, and are woefully out of practice.

8

Actually, it’s just that there’s probably a forcefield over it. And the droids were some distance away from the edge, making it more difficult to push them than just hack them.

I know people often miss this, but it’s not a video game power. It takes time and concentration to do things like that (especially on a large scale), and apparently people are a bit more resistant than objects. They do a good job of showing this nearly every time, too. They can manipulate tiny objects quickly or do a brute-force shove, but it’s not 100% effective or anything.

I think that when Yoda uttered his “Size matters not” line, he meant that to someone who truly understood the Force, it wouldn’t. He/she/it/other would coimpletely realize that matter was a mere illusion or whatever and would have no problems moving a planet. For the actual living Jedi, of course, they probably don’t believe they could do so, or can’t really comprehend what would be neccessary.

9

The best defense is a good offense.

I know what you’re getting at, and it does muddy the waters a bit. I think, however, that Yoda’s point had more to do with motivations than with specific actions. In other words, don’t go swinging for Darth Vader’s head because you hate him. On the other hand, engaging him in combat to defend the galaxy against his actions would, in a sense, be defense.

That rule gets broken often enough in the prequels to suggest that, either Yoda’s words to Luke were mere advice (as opposed to a hard-and-fast rule), or it’s a way of thinking he developed after the Clone Wars and Vader’s atrocities.

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I don’t think you need to make them all-powerful. I don’t have a problem with the idea that using the Force takes concentration and, more importantly, energy, so that there’s limits to a Jedi’s powers (sort of like the way you need to “recharge” after using Force powers in the various Jedi Knight games). My problem is a characterization - they seem to, for the most part, have no concept of a holistic use of the Force. When they enter combat, they use their lightsabers only, and don’t seem to integrate any other powers or skills aside from some acrobatics. The moments when a Jedi does do more (such as when Vader was hurling things at Luke on Bespin while also attacking with a lightsaber) stand out as exceptions rather than rules. I would have thought that, given how long the Jedi had been in existence, they would have developed some very, very sophisticated and complex styles of combat that would take full advantage of all of their powers.

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Perhaps using force powers like pushing, lightning, etc prove less effective than a lightsaber. Moving objects with the force requires concentration, which means less concentration on your lightsaber, and the attacks of your foe, which is essential, especially when fighting another force-user. Vader flung objects at Luke in Ep. 5, but keep in mind the huge gap in their abilities at that point.

12

Agreed. Yoda’s always been the wise one, but that doesn’t mean he didn’t have anything new to learn.

Not only was there a large gap in their abilities, but they were relatively far away from each other, too. Seeing as Luke was still a novice and was getting really worn out, Vader knew he could just kind of hang back and throw stuff at him.

13

My theory (I’ve thought the same thing) is that the problems were caused by the prequels. Now that I’ve seen the prequels (well, the first two) I question why Luke and Vader (or Obi-Wan and Vader) weren’t trying to force push each other around and do all the other things that Jedis apparently did in the earlier years.

Before the prequels, I simply applied the logic that when Jedis met, they either: (a) were force users and had a natural immunity or defense against being shoved around or having the force applied in their immediate vicinity (only exception would be Luke having things thrown at him and there was a fair distance there and Luke was a relative newcomer); or (b) while they could try those things against each other, real Jedis realized that they were fairly easily cancelled out, and therefore pointless (so in a way, the lightsaber fights were because when two Jedi met, all they had left was physical fighting, as the force powers cancelled out).

Unfortunately, the “first” movies destroyed these theories, and offered nothing to with which to replace them.

14

I also wonder why, if they can *detect * Dark Side & Light Side, why didn’t they feel Anakin falling? There’s a scene in the trailer for Ep III where the large leader-type Jedi (I’m sorry, I can’t remember his screen name or regular name right now) says something like, “I don’t trust him.” Well, why the fuck’d you send him then? I thought it was supposed to be all about trusting your instincts.

Of course if they followed me, Anakin would probably still have fallen but all alone and quiet-like. No one would have even noticed!

15

Mace Windu (Samual L. Jackson)

Good questions, all. Just proves that prequels are generally a bad idea when you are as sloppy a plotter as Lucas. :smiley:

16

Amen to that. It’s his creation, but I really wish he’d taken a high-level role in general direction of the story line and let other, much more skilled writers and directors handle the details. We could have had three "Empire Strikes Back"s, but instead we have two films that fall somewhere between ROTJ and the “Star Wars Christmas Special.” All reviews of Episode III so far are favorable, so I guess we at least get to go out with a bang.

17

I think that Yoda understands that Anakin is important and necessary, part of the FORCE’s ‘plan’ for the universe. He is the reason that Anakin remains doing what he must do withon the Jedi order despite the fact that his weaknesses are recognised by Mace and Obi-Wan aseveral times.
It also seems that Jedi rely on their lightsabers to deflect energy weapon blasts, though in ESB Vader can absorb a single shot from Han Solo there is no oindication that it was an easy trick or applicable to large numbers of energy weapon attacks. Jedi telechenisis seems to work only weakly against living opponents and seems to have range limitations that mean Jedi have to get in relatively close to the fighting to be really effective. Gievous isn’t a droid so jedi telechenisis is probably insufficient to beat him, also he may have innate force resistance (like the Huts or Watto).

18

This may have been mentioned before, but I suspect the it has to do with the difference between sith and Jedi. While a Sith would have no problem shooting someone in the back, a jedi can’t do that. It seems like a Jedi has to fight honorably, giving the opponet a chance to fight back(or something like that). Perhaps throwing stuff is not consiered honorable?

19

I agree. When I first saw ESB and Vader throwing stuff at Luke, I got the feeling that that wasn’t fighting fair. Of course a Dark Side apprentice doesn’t have to fight fair.

Also remember when Yoda lifted Luke’s ship out of the Dagoba swamp, he didn’t lift it immediately. It took him some time. In the heat of battle, I don’t think you can waste that much time. There is also the question of whether people react the same way as objects.

20

I always presumed that could have something to do with his being made of metal and being armored. It has been a really long time, but I think I even recall one of the novelizations suggesting it was due to some type of body armor.