Attack of the Clones/Phantom Menace Anti-Jedi rant. Warning! SPOILERS GALORE!

The BBQ Pit
1

I do not understand what Lucas is trying to say about the Jedi. My impression is that he thinks they’re the good-guys, but everything he does or shows on screen shows me that the Jedi suck (except Luke, who isn’t a normal Jedi: he gets pissed, he uses his emotions, he’s not hidebound by rules…he’s human)

For example:

In the Phantom Menace, the Jedi council were shown to be a bunch of ineffectual morons

Yoda: Most powerful potential candidate we’ve ever seen, he is! So, rather than train him, and teach him to control abilities that he’s already using and help heal the anger/fear/hatred thing, we’ll kick him out in the streets. Make things better, that will!

Obi-Wan: Yeah, I know what you mean, but…what the hell. I’ll try to train him anyway.

Yoda: What? A half-trained novice wants to try to train the most powerful force-user we’ve ever seen? Whatever.

Or

Qui-gon: The kid’s full of anger and scared for his mother who’s been sold into slavery. Slavery’s wrong. But…rescuing her would be a bother and might break a rule somewhere. All rules are good. Hmmm…Amidala has a huge treasury, being queen and all: why don’t we buy her out of slavery? Nah. Still too much trouble. 'Sides, what’s wrong with upholding and supporting a slave-state?

In Attack of the Clones, they’re even dumber:

Amidala: I have to stay and make that speech or we’ll end up in a dictatorship.

Jedi Morons: Nah. Don’t you worry your pretty little head about nuthin’. We’ll protect you. Now go hide.

Amidala: But…wait. If I go hide and DON’T cast that vote/make that speech it’ll have the same effect as if our unknown enemy offed me, except that you won’t have the martyr thing going for you. I should stay.

Jedi Morons: Nope. You’re too valuable.

Amidala: Why? The only reason I’m being hunted is 'cause of that speech. If I don’t make it, I have no value.

Jedi Morons: Just! Shut! Up! Making our heads hurt, you are! 'Sides, we got Jar-Jar to make that speech.

Amidala: Jar-Jar? No. Seriously. Who’ve you got?

<pregnant pause>

You’re serious? Are you all insane? He’ll sell the Republic out for a handful of magic beans! <sigh> At least you’ll let me brief him IN DETAIL, right? Explain that he shouldn’t vote for anything that conentrates power in one person’s hands?

Jedi Morons: Ahhh-nope!. Not gonna do it. Nosir.

Amidala: Trys to grab a blaster and shoot the morons on the Jedi Council. Fails and is whisked off.

======

Later on:

Evil sneaky person #1: I’ve prepared a thirty-page document filled with insidious rhetorical tricks and logical conundrums to bollox that moron Jar-Jar into voting our way.

Evil sneaky person #2: Lemme try something before you start.

Evil sneaky person #2: Hey Jar-Jar!

Jar-Jar: Dar…what you want with meesa?

Evil sneaky person #2: Y’know how Amidala said not to vote for anything involving armies?

Jar-Jar: Duhhhh…yuh! Meesa doosa remembersa thatsa!

Evil sneaky person #2: Well, what if, instead of voting for armies, you vote for some else who’ll create those armies? If you do it, we’ll give you some nice shiny magic beans and a gumdrop!

Jar-Jar: Meesa doosa itsa! <skips off>

Evil sneaky person #1: That was easy. < throws away 30 page document >

Have you noticed that every single time the Jedi (not counting Luke) have said or done something, they’ve been completely wrong or lied?

“So what I told you was true…from a…certain point of view.”
Yeah, the point of view of a lying asshole.

That line from Yoda in Empire about how if Luke tries to rescue his friends, he’ll betray everything they stood for. But he didn’t and things would have been FAR worse if he hadn’t. Hell: Vader would’ve had Leia for fuck’s sake! How could things have been worse if Luke had stayed behind? How bad would it have been to have “the other”, completely untrained and just brimming with anger in Vader’s hands?

Not taking 10 minutes to rescue Anakin’s mom.

Not being willing to train Anakin.

Sending Luke in to face Vader without the foreknowledge that Vader was Luke’s daddy.

Telling Luke to put his emotions aside, but AT THE SAME TIME telling him to trust his feelings. If Luke had been a Star Trek computer, he would have exploded with that set of instructions.

And Luke was at his most effective when he does use his emotions: his compassion for his friends in Empire, his anger at Vader in Jedi. When he was calm and collected, he got his ass kicked. When he got pissed off, he beat the shit outta Vader. Besides, in Jedi, the “calm, emotionless” thing to do would be to slice dad into Vaderwurst, thus reducing the conflict to one enemy (not to mention Vader’s complicity in horrific war crimes screams for calm, emotionless justice). Instead, love saves the day. (Hint: love is an emotion).

Frankly, either Lucas is a master of brilliant subtlety saying "Jedi suck, watch Luke find a new philosophy that leaves behind all that “be a robot” crap that Yoda spouted, OR Lucas doesn’t bother to think about how he’s reconciling his message with his character’s actions.

Really, is Lucas trying to make the point that the Jedi all suck? 'Cause right now, I’m rooting for Sidious and Dooku. Yeah, they’re selfish and evil, but at least they’re not selfish and evil hypocrites.

Science Fiction author David Brin wrote a couple of scathing articles on similar themes about the Star Wars universe (only he’s much more irritated with it than I am…if you can believe that :wink: )
and he suggested that the only way the original trilogy makes any sense is if you assume that, at the very end on the Moon of Endor, when Luke gazes at the three Jedi ghosts in the flames, you assume that the three ghosts are in Jedi Hell. You’ve got three of the four most evil people we’ve seen in the SW universe in the flames (“Too much bother to save women and children, it is” Yoda “Just hide in my swamp for twenty years, I will, despite having the power to at least shield some people from harm.”, you’ve got the “I’ll lie to you and manipulate you, if it’s convienient to me. Convienient, from a certain point of view” Obi-Wan and you’ve got Darth “I vas only following orders” Vader. The only one you’re missing is The Emperor. My hope is that the three burning Jedi ghosts are standing on The Emperor.)

Don’t get me wrong. If I just watch the movies, I can enjoy them (except for The Phantom Menace: I’d rather watch Manos: The Hands of Fate) for what they are. I love the innocent brashness of New Hope, the wonderfully written and directed Empire and the Wagnerian drama of Jedi. I even like the James Bond action/adventure feel of Attack of the Clones. But to me, Lucas is sending a horrible message that doesn’t bear up to probably more scrutiny than he’d intended.

Fenris

2

Perhaps their robot-ness is what led to the Force going out of balance in the first place.

3

But Anikan follows his emotions and slaughters women and children. And Amidala falls in love with him dispite that fact. That pissed me off. Here’s a woman who in Phantom Menace preaches that “Slavery is Wrong,” and will throw herself into harms way because she “Won’t abandon her people,” yet when this guy tells her that he slaughtered an entire villiage of people like animals, she feels COMPASSION?!?!?!

What’s that saying about society?

Oh, and I like how he calls cigarrettes “Death Sticks,” too. He’s got too many statemtents to make, and not enough intelligence to make them.

4

Ok, there is the whole thing about hte force being out of whack, and Yoda is the only person who seems to have a grasp on things. There is a lack of balance, and Yoda knows that it needs to be rebalanced, and for that a lot of people have to be sacrificed. This was kind of clear to me. He tends to not interfere because his interference just throws the balance all out of whack, and I think he acknowledges that fact. Yoda has enough wisdom to realize that there has to be a balance, that neither the dark side of the light side should be in total control. Not to mention he is aware that he’s getting clouded information most of the time, and chooses not to act on it for the most part.

As for Death Sticks, who said they were cigarettes? They looked like anonymous cylindrical shapes to me. Could be any drug.

Lucas is NOT a master craftsman, and well, getting into mysticism is only gonna bite him in the ass in the end. But AotC was a great movie and I really enjoyed it.

Erek

5

My take on it is that the Jedi council is an antiquated body. They are much too stuck in their traditions to let go and usher in the change that must be made.

They are good guys, and they’re trying the best they can, but they believe that following their traditions and doing things th way things were always done would be the best way (it has worked for over 1000 years, hasn’t it?)

Plus, when you’re 300, let me know how good you are with change.

They’re not evil… just too stuck in their ways to get out.

6

The Jedi allow themselves to be manipulated and otherwise screw up repeatedly in the prequels. That’s why they are wiped out and the Empire rises. The structure of the Jedi seems flawed because it is.

7

Fenris, you and Brin are absolutely right. Thanks for letting us in on the existence of Brin’s topnotch rants. Reminds me again exactly why I’m a Brin fan.

Links: Brin’s original 1999 articles in Salon on the Star Wars series and his accompanying Episode 1 specifically, and Brin’s response to fans’ email responses to the aforementioned articles.

8

No, he wouldn’t. Leia, Lando, Chewie, and Threepio were already escaping quite nicely on their own, and were high-tailin’ it off of Bespin on their own. They had to go back for Luke, thus endangering their own escape.

9

Imagine how dumbfounded I was to find out the clones are fighting for the JEDI(?!?!?!?!)

You breed a few hundred thousand humans, and train them from the cradle to fight as expendable mercenaries (because you get paid to do so), and we’re supposed to see that as a good thing?

This advanced society, where a human will talk to something with 3 eyes without a hint of dismay or prejudice, thinks clones are NOT human?

10

One other quick question: why didn’t Luke bargain in good faith with Jabba? I mean, let’s be honest: there was no way he was going to allow Jabba to keep the droids, so why does he even offer them. This isn’t a major issue for me, but it’s a flaw in an otherwise fantastic scene (and when Lucas does revision 3.0, I’d love him to change one or two words…something like “As a token of my esteem, I give you the USE of these droids until I arrive.”

Fenris

11

My take on all that was that it served as an indicator of just how much the Old Republic had stagnated… they liked to think they upheld truth, justice, and the Amer-- er, Old Republic way, but in actuality everyone had lost touch what it all means.

In other words, pride cometh before a fall. And they fell. Big time.

Now that’s just being nitpicky. The emotionless, rational thing to do in such a situation would be to trick your enemy, not “bargain in good faith”. You insist that they act one way, and then criticize 'em when they do.

Personally, I think the whole thing is that being a Jedi is supposed to be a goal that can never be reached… strive for an emotionless state even when swamped with emotions.

12

That bothered me too. But hey, god did the same thing to the Amalakites and he has 2 billion + fans. Maybe Lucas was making a statement.

13

You know what bugs me?

If you look back at the original trilogy…well, there was Leia. She was a senator, potentially diplomatic, intelligent, good at combat. . .and she was nobody’s fool. Yeah, she fell for Han Solo, but it took three years and a lot of experiences with him. She was headstrong, but her decisions came off as informed and wise. And she dressed like a normal human being when she had the choice, too. Practically a feminist icon. She was a woman.

Now, in the prequels. . .we have Padme. She showed some promise in the first trilogy; she was smart enough to use a bodyguard, was a good queen, and knew exactly how to get the Gungans as allies.

In Attack of the Clones, however, it all goes to hell. To me, her “strong” decisions came off like a teenager taking her own path because she thinks she’s right, not because of any logic. She falls for a younger guy in a matter of days (REALLY implausible, IMHO) and says nothing about the fact that he just killed a bunch of people. She runs around in outfits that look…well, they look like she was trying to impress Anakin, actually. She, unlike Leia, comes off as a girl.

Now, this wouldn’t bother me except for the fact that she is the only major female character in the prequels. Part of the reason I was attracted to Star Wars in the first place was the fact that it had a female character who I could relate to without feeling. . .I don’t know, inadequate.

Now, granted, it seems like all the good guys in the prequels come off as a bit off-base, but at least most of the rest of them have their moments of ass-kicking or adult-ness. Padme generally just comes off as a lucky kid. And I’m younger than her, so it’s not old fogi-ness that causes it.

14

Yeah, I wondered why the Clones were actually the good guys. “Attack of Clones” and Obi-Wan’s surprise at their development made me think they were really bad guys. Of course, I guess in III Palpatine will use them to start the Empire, dissolve the Senate, and wipe out the Jedi.

15

Of course, if Lucas had made Padme a strong, decisive, no-bullshit woman who always knew what to do… Lucas would have been criticized for “trying to create another Leia”.

16

Very astute observations, Fenris. I agree that the Jedi don’t come across very well in the Star Wars films. I’ve always HATED the casual way that Kenobi comes across when he tells Luke in “Return of the Jedi” that he’d told him the truth, “from a certain point of view”. But I never really saw it as a weakness in his personality or in the Jedi in general. I saw it more as crappy writing.

I don’t want to get flamed here, because I love the Star Wars movies, but I don’t think that anyone has ever accused the dialogue in “Return of the Jedi” of being very good. I mean, the scene when Luke tells Leia she is his sister and the scene where Luke gives himself up to Vader (when they are still on Endor, before they’ve gone up to see the Emperor) are two of the flattest, most horribly written “dramatic” scenes in the entire first trilogy.

I just assume that Kenobi had a good reason for not telling Luke the truth in the first place. Like Yoda says, maybe he wasn’t ready for the truth when Kenobi lied to him in the original “Star Wars”. (I refuse to call it “A New Hope” or “Episode IV”.) I think that it makes sense that Kenobi didn’t tell him the whole truth at that point, if only because he was already overwhelming the poor kid with the entire history of the old Republic, the “dark times”, explaining the Force to him, telling him his own Uncle had been lying to him for years… on top of all that, to tell him, “Oh, yeah, and by the way… you know Darth Vader, the most hated man in the galaxy??? He’s your pa”, may have been expecting too much from Luke.

No, I’ve never hated the fact that Obi-Wan chose not to tell him the truth at that point. But perhaps, I agree, they should have told him before he went off to Cloud City to confront Vader. That kind of gave ol’ Darth a physchological advantage.

As far as your observations about the Jedi coming across as kind of stupid in the prequel trilogy, for the most part I would agree with you. (And to your observations I would add the point that Qui Gonn REPEATEDLY tells Amidala that he can’t fight a war for her… then he proceeds to do so… and then the Jedi Council sends in hundreds upon hundreds of Jedi to fight the war on Geonosis in “Attack of the Clones”. This begs the question, do the Jedi get involved in wars or not???)

But, I would also say that… PERHAPS… Lucas knows what he is doing??? I mean, I screamed as loudly as anyone about the numerous flaws in Episode One, as well as “Return of the Jedi”. But I truly believe that, as far as the big picture is concerned, Lucas knows where he is going. Maybe, like a few of the other posters here have mentioned, Lucas is intentionally showing how the Jedi have become “lost” over the years… too steeped in tradition, too set in their ways. And perhaps their mistakes and flaws are INTENTIONAL and there for us to see them, to show that they are making big mistakes that will lead to their downfall.

Perhaps the fact that they join in the Clone War and get involved in the military & political conflict will be their ultimate undoing, who knows?

One last thing. You pointed out that Luke seemed most powerful when he was pissed off. Very true. I’ve noticed that from the time I was thirteen years old and saw “Return of the Jedi” in the theater for the first time. I was completely blown away that Luke – for all intents and purposes – taps into the Dark Side to finally defeat Vader. I mean, he screams in anger and rage, drive Vader backwards for about 200 feet, knocks him to his feet and cuts his hand off. Luke was PISSED, definitely tapping some Dark Side energies there.

And I noticed, with some interest, that Obi-Wan seems to do the same thing in “The Phantom Menace” when he defeats Darth Maul. Or, at the very least, he gains the upper hand in their one-on-one battle when he seems the angriest, right after Maul has killed Qui Gonn. Watch Kenobi’s face, the guy is PISSED OFF, and it is the only part of the battle where he drives Maul backwards (right before he cuts Maul’s saber in half.)

I think perhaps that Lucas is aware of this, and the “balance of the Force” that has been mentioned a few times in the Prequels might be referring obliquely to this. Maybe the balance isn’t that the dark side is finally defeated, but that Luke AND Vader/Anakin finally figured something out… something that we all know… that in life and reality, things are rarely “black and white”, there are always shades of grey. Maybe the Sith don’t have to be defeated so much as the remaining Jedi/Force-users have to realize that to be truly balanced you have to tap into the Good Side as well as the Bad Side… and strike a balance between the two.

Just food for thought.

17

Well, it could here be rationalized that without Jedi training, Anakin would never really be more dangerous than, say, an angry wookie, which they can handle. (This would also highlight Luke’s true ability - resembling the Jedi of old in any way with as little training as he had is remarkable.)

Here I think you have to reason out something like Star Trek’s oft-broken policy of nonintervention. Which isn’t to say the Jedi don’t give a shit, but that their power is kept in check by the Republic. If they overstep their bounds, as Windu said, they’re “not soldiers,” i.e., defeatable.

Something like this would also foreshadow the Republic’s failings - among them being the Jedi’s adherence to code and law rather than basic morality. Anakin could’ve brought this up when talking to Padme after being given her speech about democracy: the Republic doesn’t function because its laws are so great, but because thousands of Jedi make sure they’re enforced at the tip of a saber.

But as time goes on, the enemies become more powerful, the Jedi become more bloated with general self-assurance, and the laws become more and more abitrary and conciliatory. Something’s gotta give.

Heh, plot hole. Bad storytelling.

Indeed, and this was something (in a better script) Anakin should’ve called Ben on, perhaps in relation to Ben being cryptic in teaching Anakin, i.e., “holding him back.” Perhaps also later when the rift begins to form between Ani and Obi, when the latter is no longer sure how much the former can be trusted.

This might be representative of the Force, though - the way of passion, of the Dark Side is the easier path, which is why a little-trained Luke is more successful when embracing that rather than the harder path of absolute tepidity. When taken to extremes, of course, this acting on passion will make him evil, evil, evil.

Neither side seems great when taken to extremes - perhaps the moral of Luke’s story.

He was probably no longer in fighting condition by then, and either the Emperor or Vader might’ve sensed him (or at least heard of his do-gooding) and promptly sent a death squad for him. Especially after Obi-Wan’s death, it was more important that he stay hidden and alive long enough to eventually train Luke, the one who could get the job done.

And in regards to Jedi Hell, I think I’ve addressed all those characters except Vader, who IMHO would never claim he was just following orders. It was obvious to himself and others that he enjoyed his work and did it well as a result. Overall, he was a deeply flawed individual blessed with the fact that someone actually cared enough to try and redeem him.

I don’t mean to endlessly defend these movies that’ve broken my heart so many times, but when I’m in nitpick mode, I’m just there, man.

I tell you, with the exeption of Empire, these movies are truly great only in my head, where their full potential is realized. To be honest, I think it’s the same for most fans of the trilogies.

18

Oh, dear gods…
It’s five-thirty in the morning, I’ve been awake for three hours, and I’m trying desperately not to wake up my wife with laughter. Fenris, you fuckwad.

Okay, calmer now.
The root cause of all the Jedi-related inconsistency is simple – Lucas has no idea how a political or military system should work. None. Look at the governments of the Star Wars universe:
The Republic, which is apparently so dedicated to good that slavery is legal.
The Empire, which either slaughtered, banished or sterilized ninety percent of its subject population, judging by the relative numbers of aliens between the original trilogy and the prequels.
The Jedi Council, which is made up of a bunch of yammering toffs who couldn’t collectively decide whether to have the hotel’s continental breakfast or just grab a muffin and a box of milk on the way out the door.

Which segues into the military part:
The Jedis have no apparent role in anything, yet are the primary focus of every master plan ever. They’re not soldiers, says Mace Windu. Yet they train exhaustively in combat. They’re not policemen, because Obi-Wan doesn’t want to investigate assassinations. They’re not bodyguards, because Anakin doesn’t want to protect Amidala (which leads me to the thought of “they’re not heterosexual,” but that gets rectified). They’re not monks, because no one who’s not a Jedi seems to buy into this Force crap. They’re not educators, because the only people we ever see Jedi training are other Jedi. They’re not any part of the government, despite being ordered around by the government. They make no fucking sense.
The Emperor-To-Be proves how EEEEEvil he is by establishing an Army? You’re telling me a system of thousands of worlds, at least hundreds of intelligent races, has been peaceful for a thousand years with no military presence whatsoever aside from the ill-defined Jedi Legions?
And the thing that sealed it for me – the clones have crack commando units? THEY’RE CLONES! THEY’RE ALL THE FUCKING SAME! We’re supposed to buy that Jango Fetts number 1,999,501 through 2,000,000 are better soldiers than Jango Fetts 1 through 1,999,500?

19

The magic words, which Yoda never once mentioned are “When taken to extremes…” Most examples of humans doing the right thing came from passion: when people got fed up with injustice and felt “rightous anger”. Granted. “rightous anger” can be used for the wrong reasons, or can go overboard, etc…but the “be tepid” philosophy is hopelessly flawed.

**

I used the “just following orders” thing to try to deflect the “Darth was under the influence of the Dark Side: it wasn’t his fault” argument.

Anyway, how did saving Luke redeem Darth? To swipe a bit from one of those David Brin articles linked to upthread, (paraphrased) "What if Hitler had stopped someone from shooting Eva Braum. Would that have “redeemed” him? I still vote for Jedi Hell. :wink:

I dunno: yeah, there’s cheesy dialogue, mediocre acting and bad philosophy…but Lucas touched on magic with that original trilogy.

Fenris

20

Oh, and “Queen” is an elected office…that somehow coveys a heriditary title. Wha…?

**

In all fairness, the weird alien chick on the Clone Planet made a comment about how a bunch of the clones were modified to be more docile during the scene where she’s showing Obi-Wan around.

Fenris