AOTC: The Jedi are the bad guys

Cafe Society
1

Saw AOTC last night. Hated it, but that’s not the point of this thread.

No, what struck me was that the Republic and the vaunted “good guy” Jedi are, quite frankly, morally reprehensible.

I first thought this after seeing TPM, in which our dear Jedi have abolutely no problem with slavery on Tatooine, a Republic world.
But AOTC confirmed it. The “bad guys” use androids - machines - as their fighting force. The Jedi use sentient beings, cloned and genetically manipulated to lose their free will, as their expendable fighters. Worse yet, they order them and pay for them. The Jedi were trafficking in sentient living beings. Far from merely tolerating slavery, as in TPM, they were engaged in the slave trade.

I say that they deserve what’s coming.

Sua

2

Apparently, you hated both movies enough to not actually watch or listen to them.

From the screenplay–

Padme: I can’t believe there is still slavery in the galaxy. The Republic’s anti-slavery laws . . .
Shmi: The Republic doesn’t exist out here. We must survive on our own.

Try again?

Further to the point, I guess the Jedi were supposed to abandon the mission they were on – getting the Queen to Coruscant – to overthrow slavery on Tattooine or something. Is that your point?

You don’t suppose that the person who ordered that army wasn’t really a Jedi, do you? Since the Jedi that the Kaminoans say ordered it has apparently been dead since before that? Maybe it was – oh, I don’t know – a Sith impersonating a Jedi? Naaaaaah. Couldn’t be.

And it would just be crazy to think that Sidious and Dooku purposefully put the Jedi in a position where they had to make a choice between using the army to defeat the separatists and rescue the Jedi or risk being exterminated. That’s just nuts.

I wish people would actually watch the movies if they’re going to criticize them.

3

pl, instead of going through that absurd rigamorale in TPM to get them money to buy Annakin, perhaps the mighty Jedi should have just taken Annakin (and his mother!!) away from their slavemaster - who was just a little putz anyway.

But fine, I’ll concede the TPM slavery point. I won’t concede the AOTC slavery point.

The question of who ordered the clones aside, the Jedi (not just the Jedi, but Yoda!!) took delivery of said slaves and threw said sentient beings into battle.

And who said that the Jedi and the Republic had no other choice? Let’s see - there are tens of thousands of worlds in the Republic. We need an army. Maybe we could raise said army from the trillions of citizens in the Republic? Naaaah, let’s go the expedient route and use cloned slaves who have had their free will bred out of them.

Sua

4

Yeah, because the exploding, remotely-triggerable implants in their bodies would have proven not to be a problem, right? Level with me, Sua–you didn’t actually watch the movie, did you?

And we can do it in the next day! And train them, too! Because it’s not like the Jedi are in danger and in the middle of a heated battle on Geonosis or anything! We’ve got all the time in the Universe!!

You didn’t really see this one either, did you? Try to follow the sequence of events–

  1. Ten years ago, fake Jedi orders clone army.
  2. Present day, Palpatine/Sidious and his Sith buddies manipulate events to create false crisis of separatists and to plant idea of need for a Republic army.
  3. Jedi go to Geonosis to rescue Obi-Wan and find themselves at the mercy of Dooku and the “separatists.”
  4. Yoda takes clone army to rescue Jedi, lest they be destroyed.
  5. Palpatine, having been granted emergency powers, sends the clone army, now given legitimacy due to its use by the Jedi, off to thousands of worlds to subjugate them and consolidate his powers.
  6. Jedi are truly and deeply fucked now, hoist on their own petard.
5

It was stated that the slaves had an explosive implanted to prevent escape. Killing Watto and spiriting the slaves away would’ve splattered Anakin and Shmi (and possibly anyone near them) into a fine red mist. Not to mention causing the Jedi, the Queen and her retinue to be hunted down and killed without even coming close to getting the Queen’s ship repaired so they could get her to Coruscant. Remember, they weren’t just trying to buy Anakin, they were trying to buy a new hyperdrive. Qui-Gon managed to get Anakin thrown into the deal.

So, instead of taking charge of this army that had been created by someone claiming to be one of them, and using said army to save the Jedi who were trying to stop the separitist movement that threatened to split the Republic, Yoda should’ve raised an all-volunteer army, spent months or years training them, then done…what? By then, the Republic would’ve been fractured by Dooku’s separatist movement and the other Jedi would be nothing but bleached bones on some planet somewhere.

And then, Yoda would be stuck with over a million sentient beings who have been bred and raised to be soldiers with nothing to do. The Jedi were stuck with this army, there’s nothing else the soldiers can do because they are genetically predisposed to military service, so it made sense that they may as well use these guys for the purpose they were intended for (and what they’re happy doing, thanks to the genetic conditioning) and then let them serve as the Republic’s army to face the separatist threat. Now, before anyone complains about how it’s wrong to force the separatists to stay in if they don’t want to, it was a good enough course of action for Abraham Lincoln.

6

It seems that Yoda arrived in the nick of time with an already armed and trained fighting force. There was no time to darft Republic citizens, arm them and train them in time to save the Jedis. The movie ends immediatly after the battle.

We don’t know if the Jedi say after that “No more clones, it’s morally reprehensible. We only used them once cause we had no choice.” And then perhaps we have 3 factions: Separatists with their droids, anti-clone Republic faction with Jedi support and a drafted army, and Palpatine’s pro-clone group. That’s all just speculation.

As for just whisking Anakin and Shmi off of Tatooine, you have to remember that they had explosives embedded inside them that couldn’t be removed easily. If they were to leave the planet (or perhaps even the city) then Kaboom!

7

Darn too slow.

8

Also, the Jedi are servants of the Republic and are under the ultimate control of the Chancellor. The Chancellor wanted the clone army, and if the Jedi didn’t want to serve with them there wasn’t much they could do short of joining the separatists. Therefore, the Jedi are not the villains, but are instead tools/pawns of the villain.

So while they do come out looking not-so-great, you have to remember that the films are about the fall of the Republic and the Jedi, so that’s what we get.

9

Are you sure you saw it?

Check. But –

  1. Jedi discover that fake Jedi ordered a Clone army.

Check. But the war hasn’t started yet. The separatists haven’t attacked yet. What’s the rush that prevents the Republic from at least trying to raise an army of its citizens, instead of going straight to slaves?

Bzzt!!! Wrong. What really happened was –

Obi-Wan is captured.
The Jedi go off to save him.
At precisely the same time the Jedi leave, Yoda goes to get the slaves, er, clones.
Yoda doesn’t know that the Jedi are in need of rescuing when he goes to get the clones. It is Yoda’s immediate response when he learns that one Jedi has been captured. (Annakin had not been captured when Jedi went to get the clones).

There is expediency and then there is expediency. Perhaps it is justified to engage in slavery to save the Republic. But Yoda and the Jedi Council engaged in slavery to save one Jedi. I would think by the code of the Jedi, a Jedi would sacrifice himself rather than be responsible for the enslavement of hundreds of thousands of sentient beings.
Add to that, Yoda went to get clones that he knew had been ordered by a fake Jedi. Suspicious, yes. Made for evil, they are.

Sua

10

Separatists? Let 'em secede.

What really bad thing would that be?

Give them a taste of independence, and perhaps failure, let them come slinking back to the Republic…maybe they’ll learn something.

Or…

Maybe they would sucsede, and the republic would learn something.

11

Well, for one thing, it would be a tremendous blow to the economy. Note that the separatists are composed primarily of large corporations such as the Trade Federation and the Banking Clan. Imagine what would happen if, say, Microsoft, GM, Ford, and the New York Stock Exchange decided to secede from America.

12

I just thought I would toss this article in here…
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp

13

Sounds like you looked at both movies, but didn’t really watch them, Sua. The Jedi are responding to a crisis on Geonosis, which Obi-Wan reported to them before being captured. His transmission ends with a pair of destroyer droids walking into the frame and attacking him- very alarming. Every available Jedi sets off on a rescue mission - is it illogical for Yoda to decide to bring the clone army along just in case? If it’s important enough for the Jedi to go in force to Geonosis, then it’s logical for Yoda to bring reinforcements in case they’re needed, and in case some kind of garrison force is necessary.

Now, sure, the war hadn’t started yet when these events were set into motion, but playing both sides has been Palpatine’s strategy all along. In TPM, he created the crisis with the Trade Federation on Naboo in order to have Valorum voted out as supreme chancellor and himself nominated to fill the post. Ten years later in AOTC, he has created a secession crisis, maneuvered himself into being granted emergency powers as Supreme Chancellor, and arranged for this big clone army to be created (maybe he was going to use them to support the separatists, but Obi-Wan discovered the army and the plan had to be changed)- this way, he’s guaranteed a war to perpetuate the crisis and cement his hold on power. If you’ll recall, a major point of contention - and the reason for the asassination attempts on Padme Amidala - is whether or not the Republic should raise an army or not. Palpatine declares that, now that he has emergency powers due to the separatist crisis, he will raise a Grand Army of the Republic - by then, the Jedi are heading off to battle.

As for Yoda’s justification for using the clone army, when its an emergency, you use the tools you have at hand. Sure, he knew that they were ordered by a fake Jedi, but the Kiminoans didn’t know it, so they trained the clones to be loyal and take orders from the Jedi.

Here Yoda has a couple of hundred thousand highly trained soldiers (in the batch who are ready to go) who are itching to take orders from him, and the rest of the Jedi are going on a rescue mission that looks like it might result in combat. Hmmm…not a hard decision on our favorite Muppet’s part. Even if he doesn’t know how bad the fight will be, there’s no reason not to arrive with reinforcements just in case, and figure out the whys and whos later, once the smoke clears.

14

Sua, have you ever heard the expression “Never look a gift horse in the mouth?”

Au contraire, mon ami. First of all, the attack upon Dokoo was pre-emptive, for he had his army assembled, along with the droid armies of his allies. They could’ve struck the next day. And in fact they did attack the Republic, in a way, by capturing(and trying to execute) a member of the Jedi.

Where are you getting all this from? Palpatine ordered Yoda to get the clones. Palpatine ordered the attack, it was luck(“In my experience, there’s no such thing as luck”) that he had them in time to sense the Jedis in danger.

A fake Jedi? Huh? The Jedi in question was real, if I recall correctly, but sadly passed away after he supposedly made the order.

15

“We were just following orders,” it has been established, does not excuse crimes against (oh damn, what? Ahh, yes) humanity (Jango was human, so the clones were human). Such as slavery.

Sua

lenin, fight it out with pldenison. He accused me of not watching the film because my recollection is the same as yours.

Sua

16

The problem with the Jedi is not that they’re evil, but that they’re bumbling incompetents. They stumble into every trap Palpatine lays for them. They jump into action Wile E. Coyote style with no plan or purpose. Obi-Wan and Anakin seem to get their asses kicked by pretty much everyone they come up against (the Tuscan PTA not-withstanding).

Hell, if I needed a bodyguard, I think I’d feel safer with David Addison or Valerie Irons on the case.

17

Good points Sua. To expand on them a bit.

Point 1) Ok, so there’s a bomb in L’il Anakin an’ his mommy? Keen. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are Jedi. “Size matters not”, remember? All Qui-Gon had to do is use the far-seeing stuff (that we saw Luke use) to look inside the kid and his mommy to see the bombs then one of the two Jedi had only to twiddle his fingers to A) break the bombs, B) remove the bombs, C) disable the bombs. OR, even better, grab Watto, put your turned-off lightsaber to his left ear, and ask him if he want’s his right ear cleaned when you turn the light-saber on? No? Then better hand over the de-activator for the kid and his mommy. It’s amazing how the Jedi forget their powers when it’s incovienient to the plot. Hell: grab another slave-owner who isn’t convienently immune to Jedi Mind Tricks and force him to give up his money to pay Watto. Oh. But you couldn’t make a video game out of that. :rolleyes:

And before someone goes all culturally relativistic on me, let me say in advance that by being a slave-owner, anything the Jedi do to him in order to free the slaves is morally fine by me.

Fenris

18

tanstaafl: Thanks for that link. As someone who hates Star Bores, I thought it was hilarious.
Darth Vader rules, Han Solo drools.

19

Sua, what would you have the Jedi do in regards to the Army? By the time Yoda arrived and spoke to the Kaminoans, it must have been obvious to him that this army was ordered for some dark purpose. Should he have just left it there and said, “Whelp, I guess I’ll leave it to be picked up by whoever wants to use it for evil! Bye!” I guess you’d want him to take it and turn it loose, which might be reasonable, but there was that matter of the droid armies being assembled on Geonosis (which Obi-Wan did tell them about) and the potential for danger to a couple hundred Jedi.

It’s a lose-lose situation for the Jedi. Leave the army there, and not only do the Jedi on Geonosis (which included the entire Council) get slaughtered, but the army’s real orderer takes it for evil purposes. Take it with them, and Palpatine, leader of the Republic (and newly blessed with emergency powers) says, “Thanks for picking up that army–I’ll just take it off your hands now.”

Regarding the “fake Jedi” issue, it should have been apparently clear that someone showed up on Kamino using Sifo-Dyas’s name to order the army. Let’s see . . .

–AOTC takes place 10 years after TPM
–Darth Maul was killed at the end of TPM, necessitating recruitment of a new Sith apprentice
–Dooku, who is revealed to be a former Jedi, also turns out to be Lord Tyranus, a Sith. It doesn’t say when he left the Jedi order, but dollars to doughnuts says it was ten years before AOTC.’
–Someone shows up ten years ago on Kamino claiming to be Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and orders a clone army
–Master Sifo-Dyas was killed about 10 years ago
–The template for the clones, Jango Fett, was “recruited by a man called Tyranus [who we know is Dooku] on one of the moons of Bogden.”

I’m getting a picture here–you don’t suppose that Dooku left the Jedi, joined the Sith, killed Sifo-Dyas and used his name on Kamino to order a clone army, and recruited Jango to be the template for it, do you?

Fenris: So, not only are the Jedi’s powers supposed to be without limit (and BTW, when did Luke ever use his powers to do an MRI or a CAT scan, for crissakes??? If they could do that, Qui-Gon could have just done his own freakin’ midichlorian count–with magic!!!), they are supposed to dump their mission at the drop of a hat?

20

Forgot the last part

And why would they just be able to “twiddle their fingers” :rolleyes: and disable the bombs at all? We have never seen Jedi able to affect the actual operation of machinery at a distance. Especially machinery they’ve never laid eyes on. We’ve seen them perform basic telekinetic tasks, like moving an object or causing a switch to throw.

But Ben Kenobi had to physically shut down the tractor beam on the Death Star. He couldn’t just “twiddle his fingers” at the map in the control room and shut it down. Luke had to physically blow up the Death Star. The team on Endor had to physically shut down the shield generator–they never suggested Luke just “twiddle his fingers” at it and make it shut down.