AOTC: The Jedi are the bad guys

Cafe Society
21

I watched the movie tonight, and I came to the same conclusion for different reasons.

We have ‘The Republic’ which te Jedi know to be corrupt, which has proven it is unable or unwilling to protect its citizens from being slaughtered and enslaved (see Naboo invasion TPM). In short it is failing. A group of people wish to leave this ‘Democracy’. They don’t want to orchestrate a coup. They want to leave. And the Jedi are forcing them to stay why? Aren’t the Jedi just acting as the enforcer arm of the imperialist republic?

Then we have a Jedi murdering women and children. Yoda knows about this. A senator knows about this. What happens to this mass murderer? Absolutely nothing whatsoever. While he is threatened with banishment form the order for disobeying a direct order on the field of battle, for mass murder absolutely nothing happens. No prison sentence, no banishment, nothing. The state and the order know that its Jedi are doing this sort of thing and nothing happens. So much for the Jedi being the keepers of peace and justice. They willingly accept murderous thugs into the order. So much for the senate/republic being the good guys. If you murder women and children on a non-republic world they no only do nothing, they actually allow you to continue to act as police officer.

But he was crying about it later, so that make it okay I guess.

Then we have to Jedi walk into a bar, hit someone with a lightsaber, and when the crowd gathers round the senior officer says “Jedi business’ and everyone shrinks back. This strongly implies their they were frightened, or they know there is absolutely nothing you can do about Jedi actions.

The impression I get is that the Jedi are brownshirts for the ‘democratic’ imperialism of the republic. I’m sure this wasn’t Lucas’s intent, but that really is the way they come across. Allowing a mass murderer to stay in the ranks of the Jedi means that the jedi have no moral right to tell anyone what constitutes just and legal behaviour, and the Senate/republic has no right to suggest that it is compassionate, just r taking the moral high ground. The movies no longer have goodies and baddies. Just two sides with legitimate greivances, on fighting a ‘War of Independance’.

22

They can see across the friggin’ galaxy, through planetary atmospheres, solid walls, entire planets; a few millimeters of skin shouldn’t matter. Since their greatest master says that for TK “size matters not”, they shouldn’t have any trouble using TK to grab the thing and since they have pre-cog it should be no problem whatsoever to disarm the thing (“What if I pull this wire out? Hmmm…we all die. Ok, what if I pull this wire out?”)

I’m only using abilities Lucas has explicitly said they have. It’s not my fault if he has to resort to an “idiot plot”* to work around the abilities he’s already given them.

And hell, assuming that for whateverthehell reason their Jedi powers suddenly become useless for disarming the bombs, what about A) threating Watto B) Mind-Tricking a vulnerable slave-owner to buy L’il Anakin and Mom (they can’t ALL be immune, can they?) or C) Have Amidala pawn ONE of her fancy outfits to get the money to free the two slaves?

And since both Jedi (IIRC-or was it just Qui-Gon?) thought it so important to rescue L’il Anakin ('cause he was so hyper-midichlorinated), why not take another few minutes to try to rescue mom, since a happy well-adjusted Uber-Force User is better than an emotionally traumatized one by ANY rational.

For all his other flaws (like blowing up planets), at least the Emperor managed to stamp out the slave trade on Tattoine (as opposed to the Jedi, who couldn’t be bothered…

Fenris

*“Idiot plot” = one that only works because all the characters are idiots.

23

I don’t think the Jedi have to take orders from the Chancelor. I’m fairly certain the Jedi predate the Republic and can do pretty much whatever they want, but that they are loyal to the Republic. Since the Republic becomes the Empire, and the Jedi fight against the Empire, its evident that they are not necessarily under Palpatine’s direct control.

24

Folks, wouldn’t the Jedi be a bit, erm, pointless if they really had such far-reaching powers? Twiddle your fingers and the problem is instantly solved? Jedi are supposed to be magicians, not gods. The Force is along the lines of a magic wand. Useful? Yeah. Mystifying to the uninitiated? Sure. Solution to all life’s problems? Nuh uh.

I do admit that it squicked me a bit to see the Jedi using a cloned army, though.

25

The Jedi aren’t trying to force them to stay. When is that ever said or implied? They’re trying to keep them from attacking the Republic. Palpatine says that he will not allow the Republic to be split and that his negotiations will not fail, and Mace tells him basically that if they do fail, the Jedi can’t pull his ass out of the fire. (“We’re keepers of the peace, not soldiers.”)

It’s only by virtue of the fact that they’re investigating the plot to kill Amidala that they discover the armies assembling on Geonosis, and even then they use the clone army to rescue the Jedi, and to take away the separatists’ ability to attack the Republic. It is never stated that they care one way or the other whether the seperatists join the Republic. And they aren’t the ones being sent off (presumably to quash the seperatists) at the end of AOTC–the clone armies are.

He does? Really? He must have kept it to himself, then, since all he tells Mace is “Young Skywalker is suffering.” It’s never even implied that Yoda knows exactly what happened.

And? When exactly in AOTC did she get an opportunity to tell anyone about it? Do the Tusken Raiders even have any legal standing in the Republic?

Wow, I must have missed the part in the movie that takes place when Anakin returns from Naboo after escorting Amidala back and the Council decides to take up the matter of his actions on Tatooine with him. Oh wait, there wasn’t any such part because the movie ended. It’s not like there’s another movie coming up where this dude turns into Darth Vader–maybe he gets kicked out of the Jedi order and that precipitates his joining the Sith. But I don’t know, and neither do you.

A) No comment.
B) & C) Watto didn’t want to sell them in the first place. Why would he have agreed under either of those scenarios?

[quote]
why not take another few minutes to try to rescue mom, since a happy well-adjusted Uber-Force User is better than an emotionally traumatized one by ANY rational. [/quoite]

They take them from their families nearly at birth and make them live near-monastic lives for 15-20 years. Do you suppose that makes them well-adjusted? And there is the whole matter of that other mission, that might have been occupying their minds, you know? Shmi certainly didn’t seem to care, either.

Really? When was this? Or are you privy to secret deleted scenes, too? It sure looked to me like Jabba had some slaves in his palace in ROTJ.

26

Blake says:

Are you sure?

The senator does know – but she also happens to be in love with him and knows that he did it after those in question kidnapped and murdered his mother. You think she’s about to turn him in?

Yoda, on the other hand, does not know. He felt anger and hate. That was it.

27

Yes, but your moral code is not the code that the Jedi must operate under.

If an Army Ranger is sent into WeHaveSlaves-istan to perform a mission, or ends up there in the course of performing a mission, he is to complete the mission and nothing more. He is not to take it upon himself to interfere just because he thinks he should. Why should Jedi be any different?

Indeed, interfering could potentially cause a great deal of trouble! What if word got back to Coruscant that Jedi had meddled in the affairs of a non-Republic world, and stolen property? That could be a huge political mess. The Republic is not trying to pick fights, nor are the Jedi.

28

Well then, it’s settled. Obviously the Jedi follow the Prime Directive.

29

Careful, Fenris, your geek credentials are in peril. Palpatine stamping out slavery? Like he did of Kashyyyk, the Wookie homeworld, right? Sorry, but Palpatine is responsible for the re-instituion of slavery through out the the remains of the Old Republic. I doubt he did anything to end it on Tatooine.

Also, while a Jedi might (arguably) be able to use his TK ability to disarm an explosive implant, the ability to do so does not necessarily equate the knowledge of how to do it. And you are vastly overstating the Jedi ability of foresight, which has never been shown to be as percise or as controllable as would be necessary for on-site, on-the-fly, crash course training in demolitions disposal.

And finally, what Blackknight said. Jedis running around Tattooine, flagrantly ignoring the laws of a sovereign nation and threatening its inhabitants would be a major diplomatic infraction, one which the Republic, which doesn’t even have a standing army, cannot afford.

30

Yoda is full of crap. He uses a lot of effort in lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp and in deflecting all the stuff Dooku throws at him. When Vader kills that Imperial officer with the Force, he crushes his throat, he doesn’t squeeze his heart or stir his brain around. And with the farsight or whatever it’s called, it’s not very precise. When the Death Star blows up Alderaan, Obi-Wan doesn’t say, “Crap, there was this huge moonlike thing that just shot a frickin’ huge laser at Alderaan and blew it the hell up!” He says, “I feel a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of lives were snuffed out all at once” or something like that. Given all that, how do you think a Jedi is going to disarm a small, complex device inside of someone’s body?

31

Another commentary on Star Wars, these from David Brin, who, to say the least, has a different perspective than Mike Wong:

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_side/index.html

http://www.salon.com/ent/movies/feature/1999/06/15/brin_main/index.html

I have no problem with the group leaving Shmi behind due to the expediency of the mission in TPM, but what I cannot accept is that after Annakin saves Amidala’s mission (and probably her life), and later her entire planet, she never thinks to use her considerable wealth to go back and buy Shmi’s freedom. And Annakin in 10 years never tries to go back and try to free her. The only reason Shmi is still on Tatoonie ten years later is because it’s necessary for her to be there so that she can be kidnapped and die in Annakin’s arms.

32

RE: Qui-Gon and slaves on Tatooine…

The thing that’s being forgotten here is that they were trying to keep a low profile. They had to get the Queen to Coruscant… if that failed, then millions of Naboo were going to die. In the middle of this crisis, you want them to kick off a slave revolution that (most likely) would have failed? Do you have any idea how many resources the Hutts have at their disposal? Plenty to take out two errant Jedi and a handful of Naboo guards.

RE: Jedi using clones…

The necessity for an army was already apparent. They knew that Obi-Wan was in danger, but what’s more, they knew that the Separatists were massing forces on Geonosis and were a credible threat to the Republic. It’s not as simple as “stop and recruit from the population”.

Further, the way clones are viewed in that society, they aren’t much more than sentient droids. Calling it “morally reprehensible” shows an inability to enjoy the fiction. Hell, why not criticise it for showing people carrying guns in public without a CCW permit?

Size matters not for the Force. For a Jedi, it’s a whole 'nother thing. Yoda’s teachings have always been more along the lines of “what Jedi should aspire for”. Obviously, it’s a completely different trick to knock over a few battle droids than it is to focus on insanely tiny wires and trace them throughout a diabolically intricate device.

Hell, Fenris, it’s not like there’s no limit on what a Jedi can and can’t do. Obviously, if Qui-Gon didn’t use the Force to disarm Anakin’s escape-protection device, the logical conclusion is that he was unable to (or chose not to for the purpose of maintaining the low profile as referenced earlier).

Jeez, I know TPM was bad, but watch it 'fore you criticize it.

33

Missed this…

Yeah, that is kinda stupid. The only thing I could think of would be the Hutts disapproving of outside influence in their area of space. Other possibilities - such as Amidala being bogged down by politics or Anakin being trapped in his training - don’t hold since they could easily send a representative to do it.

34

Well, it makes sense that the Republic wouldn’t do much to free Shmi. They can’t agree to pass a vote to wipe their own asses, and besides, it really is insignificant except to Anakin and a few others. Maybe if they knew exactly what would be prevented if they did so, they would have found a way. But hindsight is always 20/20.

Anakin himself couldn’t do anything. For one thing, he has no ship. He’d have to borrow or rent one. I doubt he has much in the way of money. Jedi don’t seem to be able to possess much besides their cloaks and lightsabres. Besides, the council would hardly allow a padawan to do something like that.

Amidala, we find, has barely thought about Anakin at all since they parted (much to Anakin’s chagrin). And to be honest, why should she? Her planet was recovering from attack, then she had to still be queen to her people (and now had relations with the Gungans to worry about), and then to be a senator. She probably voted for a few bills or courses of action that would have helped reduce slavery in the galaxy. That’s how she’s comfortable operating - as a politician. Yes, she can weild a blaster if she has to, but it’s clear that her main skill is politics. (She’s been a politician since she was what, 8?) If by some chance she even remembers the kid’s mother and wants to do something, she is far more likely to do so by diplomatic and political means.

There is simply no reason at all to expect anyone to free Shmi. Perhaps they should have done so, in the sense that I should give that $40 to the United Way instead of buying “The Structure of Evolutionary Theory” from Barnes&Noble. But only from a very Utilitarian perspective.

35

Shmi didn’t seem to have too bad of a life after Anakin left, until those last few days. I imagine She continued on with Watto for a few years, met this guy Cliegg, they fell for each other and he bought her freedom and lived together in wedded bliss for a few years. Maybe Anakin could sense that she was happy for the past 5 years and felt no need to rush to her aid.

36

“>>>>And? When exactly in AOTC did she get an opportunity to tell anyone about it?
“>>>>Wow, I must have missed the part in the movie that takes place when Anakin returns from Naboo after escorting Amidala back and the Council decides to take up the matter of his actions on Tatooine with him. Oh wait, there wasn’t any such part because the movie ended.”
Not sure what movie you saw pldennison. The one I saw ended with a wedding between Anakin and the senator, Anakin replete with new glow-in-the-dark arm. Now maybe the hopped a passing medical transport with no communications ability and got dropped off at a remote monastery with no communications, but I would have though there was ample opportunity in AOTC to tell the entire galaxy about it.
“>>>>The senator does know – but she also happens to be in love with him and knows that he did it after those in question kidnapped and murdered his mother. You think she’s about to turn him in?”

Well, yeh. She is supposed to be one of the good guys, as is he. By acting as an accessory to his behaviour and marrying him despite it bith she and he cease to be good by any standard I can understand.

37

I saw the movie last night, myself, and it just begs for nitpicking and deconstruction. The mortality of the clone/slaves has been pretty much hashed out, but I’m curious about the Jedis themselves. Didn’t Yoda send “all remaining Jedi” to the rescue? Strangely, that seems to be only about 30 guys, tops, including all the senior members. How many Jedi are there and if their numbers are that small, how can they keep the peace in any social structure larger than a typical college campus? Is that the best they can do when one of their own is in trouble? They all would have slaughtered but for the arrival of the clone army. I don’t see the Jedi as being numerous or powerful enough to keep the peace in a Republic consisting of thousands of worlds. It’s comparable to one regiment of Green Berets trying to act as sole U.N. peacekeepers on Earth; no matter how skilled they are individually, there simpy aren’t enough of them.

Of course, the saccharine scenes with the Jedi kidlets is tolerable only because we know that most or all of them are going to be slaughtered eventually.

Was anyone else expecting Jango’s severed head to fall out the helmet when Boba picked it up?

38

I believe they meant “all remaining Jedi on Coruscant.” The rest are scattered throughout the galaxy on missions of one sort or another.

Since you haven’t seen the movie that takes place after this one, you can really only speculate, right? Or are your movie-watching skills such that you believe that only the things that actually happen on the screen in front of you happen in the movie’s universe at all?

39

Fascinating. On one hand, in response to the idea that there’s more happening than we see on the screen, PLD says:

**

But later, we get:

:rolleyes: Consistancy. Ever the watchword of the obsessive fan.

Fenris

PS: I conceed the point that my “Emperor stamped out slavery” comment was way wrong. I’d forgotten about the “Jabba’s Place” scene somehow when I wrote that. (Which is funny, since I just re-watched Jedi a week ago!)

PPS: SPOOFESTER: Couldja pop into this thread? I think I gotcha on a bit of Star Wars trivia! :wink:

40

Yeah, Fenris, but if you concede the point, then I was right on both counts, so there. :stuck_out_tongue:

I re-watched all three of the OT last week, too, and I will concede that Natalie Portman’s AOTC acting is the worst I have seen in any of the five movies. Which is a shame, because she’s shown in movies like Heat, Beautiful Girls and Leon that she’s capable of superlative work. I blame Lucas 100% for that, since he’s the guy who decides whether he got the shot or not.