Most folks in here are acting like sexuality is a series of categories that folks fit themselves into depending on with what sex they have sex. In reality physical sexuality is more like a reverse bell curve with most of us at either end.
I am an out and openly gay man that most would consider masculine. I have been hit on by gay men, bi men and what most here would consider straight men, and I have flirted back with all of those types too. I have been in relationships with bi sexual men too. That is something I will not do again, because I believe most bi sexual men know that society much prefers them with women and that is fine with me. The added pressure can be alot to handle for them, if they are out and open. I have found a great gay man and we are very happy in our unusual relationship (open and polyamorous). Why limit love?
Mattmcl is right when he says that many gay men have had sex with a woman. As a gay man I can tell you only from my experience that most of us have tried sexual things with women to a degree. I have gotten to “third base” if you must say but have never slid home. Getting them to admit that openly is the taboo in our community. Seems a bit off topic but we digress.
I think most healthy gay men are emotionally attracted to gay men. Some, like myself are attracted to the variety of gay men. Others are attracted to whatever type they deem fit. Personally I prefer big cuddly bear types to others.
If you would substitute the word “masculine” in the first post instead of the word “straight” I think you would get a more accurate view of what most gay men are looking for in a sexual partner. What they describe as “masculine” or “straight” is of personal opinion too.
It probably is from the Ann Lander’s School of Pop Psychology -which, unfortunately, probably accurately describes the majority of shallow, narcissistic people. While the enlightened set may find it pathetic to want something more because of the challenge of the hunt, it is true of many. (though what did Emerson say about “that which we obtain too cheaply we esteem too lightly?”) If you don’t believe that “wanting what you can’t have” is not a driving force in the guy the OP was talking about, then what do you believe is?
good one! I was a bit hasty with my characterization…
To what do I attribute my friend’s observation that gays generally want “straight” men more due to their professed straightness?
As I alluded to, I think it’s a phenomenon similar to how some blacks remark that black men seek white women because of internalized racism. Likewise, I think many gays, most of whom live in a still-homophobic Western society (which is evolving, thank God), are self-hating, and are ashamed of their instinctual desires for sex with their own sex/status as naturally gay men.
Here’s another guess about a component: There may also be one of the factors that make some folks deluged with propositions when they’re in a relationship – they’re safely presumed to be not interested, and so one can engage in all sorts of fantasies and flirtations without the risk that one’ll be taken up on them.
This isn’t necessarily an internalised self-hatred thing, so much as straightforward nervous/fear response. Think about the stereotypical teenaged “star crush” – the person with that crush is dealing with emotions and internal chemistry that’s new to them, and has wound up fixing that flux on someone who won’t demand that they do anything about it while they’re working out what it means to them. (At least such is the theory I heard at one point, and it makes sense to me.)
Being a guy who’s attracted to guys in that still-homophobic Western society takes many people a lot of processing, from all I’ve been able to judge. At least some of them probably use that sort of coping technique, just because it exists.
How is this different than a woman who is more attracted to married men? Avoidance of commitment isn’t limited to any one group.
Er, surely you mean bi guys/girls? According to the Logic of Brutus (patent pending), having sex with a MOS precludes one from homosexuality.
Hmm. Brutus, if you’re still reading, how about a guy who is attracted only to secondary female sexual attributes who sees someone in drag, and is interested? What’s he?
This debate has two components, one that strikes me as a bit silly, the other that strikes me as interesting.
The silly part–and I don’t mean that as quite the putdown that it probably seems–is the portion in which two groups of people become exercized about which labelling convention they want to buy into…as if it amounts to much more than a matter of convenience. So, guys, if you want to take the position that, eg, “Einstein’s Theory” is BY DEFINITION DAMMIT any theory propounded and promulgated by ANYONE NAMED EISTEIN (including Bob Einstein, Midred Einstein, Uncle Jerry Einstein the Butcher, et al), then have at it. Yep, there is indeed a way to approach the craft of definition such that anyone who both has a penis and touches same (on someone else’s body) is a homosexual. And my wet dream in 10th grade, never repeated, makes me Bi.
The more interesting part is to ask what might cause a self-avowed gay man to respond with extra oomph to self-avowed straight men.
IMHO, part of the evolutionary programming that goes into the mammalian male brain is…er, “something”…that gets expressed through such behavioral traits as “competitiveness” and “aggression.” With apologies in advance for this crude generalization crudely expressed, men rape, women nest. (And I don’t mean “by definition.”)
Go to a gay bar and tell me that gay men are not engaged in rather strenuous competition for that night’s fucque du jour. You think drag queens and effeminata are not putting metaphorical elbow to metaphysical groin just as much as the biggest [insert heterosexual stereotype here]? The styles vary; the utter thrill of grabbing that hunk of meat away from the pack does not. And the unsurprising corollary: a conquest is not a conquest unless it’s a CONQUEST, unless there’s an unwilling victim and it ain’t me.
I mean, like, what’s sexy about a contract?
We tell ourselves that we are too enlightened, too civilized, certainly too PC, to think in such terms. True enough: we are. But I’m not talking about thinking, I’m talking about feelings, sensations, urges. Ask any feminist you happen to see–are males aroused by warm fuzzies, really great massages, and talk of Foucault, Sartre, and Susan Sontag? Or would they rather bring to earth a make?
OK, now that I’ve offended you, let’s acknowledge that our evolutionary heritage is expressed in humans in somewhat diluted and occasionally paradoxical forms; that abstract thought, if indeed it exists, allows individuals to control, and perhaps even extinguish, unwanted behaviors; that gross statistical generalizations cannot be directly mapped onto particular members of the group; and, obviously, that variance in the specific trait of arousal-per-gender (sexual orientation) could very well correlate to variance in other traits thought to be linked thereunto. It does seem that a disproportionate number of gay boys like to play with dolls…
But to the extent that the observed phenomenon is widespread, it may not be surprising at all: gay men are behaving like, well, men.
If he’s not too repulsive, he can suddenly look a lot cuter–as long as the intercourse promises to be all pleasure-for-you (the conqueror) and no pleasure-for-him (the conqueree). And looked at with a jaundiced rather than a sentimental eye, is seduction not conquest?
Not that any of this applies to me personally, he said innocently…
One thing comes to mind with “what’s sexy about a contract”:
I don’t look at sex as a contract or rape, unlike many people, it sadly seems. I really enjoy sex, bringing pleasure to someone without regard for my own pleasure (though, in a circular way, it helps if I am attracted to that person). The best part is often bringing them to release. I don’t even need to get release myself every time in order to enjoy it. It’s really making love.
So this talk of conquests is foreign to my mind. (Isn’t it true that when you hear a man talk of “conquests,” he is almost 100% assuredly a straight man? 
)…
“…(Isn’t it true that when you hear a man talk of “conquests,” he is almost 100% assuredly a straight man? )…”
That is, of course, the very question at hand. I don’t think even straight men use the WORD “conquest” very much. My allegation is, in part, that we males have a shadow on our shoulders by virtue of our evolutionary heritage, and it explains pretty straightforwardly or gayforwardly the at least a good part of the phenomenon noted by the OP.
Nisobar, I’m not at all discounting your experience of self, but please don’t neglect the possibility that (a) you are unusual, and (b) what I’m talking about gets expressed in UNobvious as well as obvious ways. I myself “like” the sound of your words, but can’t easily identify myself with them.
I’m not so sure raw lust usually contents itself to be “nice.”
Me? Unusual? 
(This discussion about straight/gay is interesting. Gives me an idea for another thread…)
Do you have some proof for this?
I’m coming out of the closet here: I have a fetish for straight men.
Here’s me theory as to why.
I was a gay kid; knew I was more fascinated and somehow excited by male nudity than by female nudity when I was three; fell in love with boys instead of girls when I was six; acknowledged to myself that I was a homosexual when I was eleven.
Starting in 1974, I went to an all-boys boarding school for sixth, seventh, and eight grades. Went to a co-ed boarding school for highschool, but lived in sexually segregated dorms.
All this added up to a pretty damn hellish adolescence. At the time, just a few years after Stonewall, there were ZERO resources for gay youth, even in the big cities—let alone in Beaver Dam, Wisconsin. So I went through my adolescent being the only gay kid in the entire universe.
Now, those are the years you begin to learn about love and sex, right? All I learned was how to hide it, how to avoid accidentally exhibiting any kind of hint that I had fallen in love with anyone, because, since no one else was gay (at least publicly), anyone I was attracted to was a straight boy, as far as I knew.
Add to this the fact that I was always somehow set apart from my peers: smarter than most, artistic, fat, and now gay. I was one brother with three sisters, with a father who didn’t like me. So I learned early on to relish—or at least embrace, in self-protective denial—my status as black sheep. So I was something of an infant iconoclast. Some examples: my mom made and sold jewelry in the seventies, and I helped her; made a lot of silver and beaded jewelry. I began collecting turquoise and silver jewelry when I was about ten. I had many necklaces, lots of rings, several bracelets. And I wore ALL of them, at the same time, to school. Fifth grade. I was also the class clown. I was usually the smartest kid in the class, plus I learned early on how to play the pity card (I had TERRIBLE parents), so I was more often than not teacher’s pet, and I milked my special standing for all it was worth. This usually took the form of heckling the teacher, and I was usually clever enough to get away with it.
Anyway, all that was to illustrate why, in highschool, though I never publicly came out as gay (just to a few close friends), I didn’t really have much fear of acting gay, so I was the picked-upon outsider for my entire school career. Plus I’d been so frequently hit by my dad that I’d learned how to take a beating, and how NEVER to fight back, so I was an easy target.
Anyway. Longwinded prelude to illustrate a simple fact: in the gang showers of my dorm life, all the other guys usually made a show of hiding their nakedness from me, since I was the class faggot. After a while this kind of hurt; it smelled like distrust.
But occasionally there’d be a guy who was decent enough, or tough enough not to care about what the other boys thought, that he didn’t play that game—grabbing a towel whenever I came into the bathroom—this one would just casually stay naked in front of me, taking his time.
My theory as to why I kind of have a fetish for straight boys stems from that occasional act of trust, I think: I felt such gratitude at being acknowledged as a fellow human being, that I think I began to equate straight-boy nudity with trust and friendship, and of course these were often the guys I developed crushes on.
Now, as an adult, I’m more likely to fall in love with a gay man, but I still get a special little thrill at the thought of spending some naked time with a straight man. But there is a kind of divide between them for me: I can’t have casual sex with a gay man; with a gay man, I have to feel committed to him before I go there. For me, casual sex is always with a straight man. Seems somehow safer for both of us, I think: casual by definition; no threat of a relationship.
So I’m something of an authority on this subject ( :eek: ), since I’ve had many occasions to, um, spend time with a straight guy who’s experimented once or twice with another guy.
Any questions?
Yes, one. Didn’t it occur to you that what floated your boat at age three, six or even eleven might not necessarily have a bearing on your adult sexuality, and that your life since then has made a self-fulfilling prophecy out of what you’d decided?
Reference the OP: I should imagine it’s the lure of the toaster. OTOH, I’ve never really been hit on by gay guys ('cept once on a bus station when I was a rising-twelve, and that counts more as pederasty than homosexuality in my book) so what do I know?
I did get into a pub conversation with a lesbian once upon a time - yes, assholish though I am, I’m fairly polite face-to-face - and she admitted to something of a liking for straight women. Maybe in her case it was to do with wanting to prove she could do it better than a man; I don’t know how often the “If you had me you’d never want a man again” like gets used… still less if male gays do actually harbour the theory that a large number of straights are really gays in denial.
:smack: “like” = “line” :smack:
You’ll have to explain this a little more; makes no sense as is.
Sorry, too obscure; I’ll try to be a little clearer: Kids of the age of three or six, and to a lesser extent eleven-year-olds, haven’t developed anything like a mature perspective on their sexuality, so isn’t it a little odd to predicate an adult’s homosexuality on something they’ve “always known”?
A fair number of prepubescents would sooner be skinned alive than associate with the opposite sex, especially in public, but still turn out straight in the end.
Please note, lissener, and anyone about to be outraged by proxy: this is a question about how you ended up this way, and does not imply, and should not be inferred as, any criticism of how you are now.
My point is that my instincts have remained consistent, from earliest memory. I’m not sure how you’d logically be able to question that. So far, there’s no logic in your question; e.g., not wanting to associate with the opposite sex is not the same as, nor even related to, being sexually attracted to one’s own gender. Not only are they not mutually exclusive, as you seem to conclude, but I nowhere said that I was averse to association with the opposite sex: as is common with many gay men, most of my friends have always been female.
Okay. The point I was making, and may be starting to flog a little by now, is that no-one “has always known” they were gay. The first ten years or so of your life don’t count. And if you decide at age eleven that you are gay, you’re likely to act in ways that reinforce your decision - even if you actually keep your sexuality private, which I can well imagine would be a matter of sheer self-protection.
Re: association with females: sure. It’s just that most kids who turn out hetero will have gone through a phase when any pre-sexual contact would have been out of the question - at least until they’re old enough to realize that you don’t get cooties just by kissing a girl. (I’m not dead sure what a “cootie” actually is, but I believe I understand the reference.)
FWIW, I can remember as a pre-pubescent thinking it very unfair that it was women who got to play with the pretty clothes and make-up, but I was always quite clear that it was girls’ naughty bits I wanted to see more of, even if other boys presented more opportunities (and we’re talking "rude
Okay. The point I was making, and may be starting to flog a little by now, is that no-one “has always known” they were gay. The first ten years or so of your life don’t count. And if you decide at age eleven that you are gay, you’re likely to act in ways that reinforce your decision - even if you actually keep your sexuality private, which I can well imagine would be a matter of sheer self-protection.
Re: association with females: sure. It’s just that most kids who turn out hetero will have gone through a phase when any pre-sexual contact would have been out of the question - at least until they’re old enough to realize that you don’t get cooties just by kissing a girl. (I’m not dead sure what a “cootie” actually is, but I believe I understand the reference.)
FWIW, I can remember as a pre-pubescent thinking it very unfair that it was women who got to play with the pretty clothes and make-up, but I was always quite clear that it was girls’ naughty bits I wanted to see more of, even if other boys presented more opportunities (and we’re talking “rude play” here rather than anything more adult). Had that carried through to adulthood, I suppose I really might have been a lesbian trapped in a man’s body; OTOH, these days and for many days past, I’m quite happy being a man, thanks.
Thanks for not being offended, lissener; no offence was intended, but that’s not always bailed me out before.
Experience? Cite? What?
Um, self contradictory?
Sorry to be unclear; I am offended.