I live in the same state as InvisibleWombat and I am surrounded by folks who swear quite regularly regardless of their level of education, so I have to conclude he/she is not located in my same city, or more likely that we don’t frequent the same circles at all. D the C , do you talk like this alll the time, or only within certain circles, out of curiosity? Meaning, is your vocab different at work than it is at home, or with certain groups of friends, or pretty much consistent across the board? I work in general contracting, primarily with men, and they swear with frequency, altho not every third word is profanity…I believe it comes mostly from stressful situations of which there are many every day in this business. I also have two teenaged sons who bring plenty of friends over (my house is one gathering place for a lot of young men in their peer group) and these kids do use f*ck as a verb, adjective, noun, adverb, interjection, etc, as often as possible in their ordinary speech. It doesn’t offend me, I see it as a cultural or generational emphatic device. But I myself curse like a sailor only when amongst those who also do so, & there are situations where it wouldn’t serve any purpose for me to indulge in such language (such as with home buyers who are customers, certain groups of my friends, my sons’ teachers, etc.). I tend to match my own language to the situation I am in. I hardly notice myself changing my language from one environment to another any more. So I guess I’d have to say the “shock value” of swear words has worn off for me, for the most part.
Count me as among those who like the emphasis brought on by the occasional swear word in SDMB responses. Not shock, just…emphasis.
Should be “I don’t need to swear and won’t in many situations where it would be inappropriate or might offend someones…”
Profanity definitely does serve a purpose as an emphatic, your claims notwithstanding. I would use “fucking” in exactly the same way you might use, I don’t know, “really” or “very.” To me, it’s a synonym. Why not use “really” or “very”? Because that’s not how I naturally talk. And “fucking” has a slightly different, more aggressive connotation to me. It’s the word I’m looking for, that’s why I use it.
My use of profanity is both situational and in-group related. I swear in front of my friends, and generally only swear around my peers. Somehow I ended up swearing in front of my mom, who doesn’t seem to mind as long as I don’t use “fuck” regularly. Depending on the situation, it can be for emphasis. Strangely enough, using excessive profanity with friends can either note enthusiasm for something or an air of distaste, depending upon tone. Personally, I use “cunt” with some friends to describe my own genitalia (I’m a girl, thanks!), but am careful about using it around anyone else, as I live in the US and many women and men would be offended by my use of the word.
I don’t really swear at work, but I accidentally let slip a “fuck” under my breath while having a conversation with a large group of my fellow employees that are mostly 5-20 years older than me. Having not sworn in front of them at all before, I got a lot of shocked and incredulous “you swear?!?” comments until I explained myself and got a little embarrassed that someone noticed. None of them were offended or embarrassed, but a bit surprised to find out that I swear on occasion. Normally if I swear at all at work, it’s a “scheisse” or “bugger,” which are relatively inoffensive at my workplace.
What about saying “The system’s busted, but I can nigger-rig a solution”? It’s not directed at anybody, but I sure as hell find it offensive–because the use around me implies that I am not the sort of person to get offended by a casual use of “nigger”.
I, myself, cuss like a sailor whenever I am in an enviroment where I think it’s fitting. In fact, I would say that’s another important function of profanity–it establishes a sort of intimacy, a “we aren’t on fancy terms with each other” vibe. The first time I cuss around someone–or they cuss around me-- is usually a pretty important signal that we are moving past aquaintance and into friendship.
And you live in Montana? Most of the Montanans I know are champions when it comes to the usage of profanity. In fact, most Westerners I know have pretty foul mouths. This includes people who are both polite and literate. The Montana and Idaho expatriates in DC that I used to work almost all had incredibly foul mouths. They were highly educated professionals who worked for U.S. Senators and throughout the federal government, so I don’t think you can stereotype them as ignorant boobs.
I also find it amazingly condescending that you presume that one cannot swear and also be (a) polite or (b) literate. Sure, it’s not polite to swear around my grandparents or folks at church, so I don’t do it. However, among my friends, it is certainly not impolite to swear, so I do. It’s all about context. Furthermore, being literate may actually increase profanity. I don’t know how well-read you are, but a number of novels have profanity in them. A number of critically-acclaimed movies have profanity in them. To try and say that being litrate precludes profanity is, in a word, bullshit.
Well…essentially yes… It’s not so much that people using profanity are “stupider” it’s more that they decide not to be polite… Is a person that uses profanity stupid? Naaaa, not necessarily, it can make them seem stupid and/or dismissive, though most probably are just insecure and lack understanding of themselves.
I am sure many others, simply have a limited vocabulary when they become emotional, board, or exclamatory… It’s truly rare to see classy, polite, and gracious “heated arguments,” but they are very cool when they happen.
Either way I think profanity can be used to provide a certain type of release, though profanity used in excess is a sign of simple mundane thinking.
~ Jay Alexander said it quite well; “Profanity is the crutch of a conversational cripple.”
And Jay Alexander was full of shit. There is simply no correlation between intelligence or conversational aptitude and the use of profanity. Here’s another quote for you, from Mark Twain:
This is not to say that dullards don’t use profanity to excess, but it is irksome in the extreme when there is a knee-jerk reaction that the speaker of such is a moron. Intelligent people do use profanity, for various reasons and effects, and it is simply intellectually lazy to dismiss them out of hand as inferior due to “offensive” language. The right word is the right word, and sometimes the right word is profane.
Don’t forget “parody.” I was responding to a particularly hostile post, in which I was being addressed as “Dude.” Hence, I took the informal address a bit further to illustrate how out-of-place it was.
Of course other times, I just forget the motherfucking context in which I am speaking.
Mark Twain? You think he was referring profanity? Hummmm…ok… I have yet to see how profanity used in excess vaults anyone to a higher conversational level… So; maybe our definition of intelligence is where our differences lie…or maybe our definition of “excess.”
Either way I don’t consider myself to be all that intelligent but when I see an intense, eloquent, classy and polite debate I find it more enjoyable and educational than the “profanity slinging, whiskey drinking, Montana cowboys, talkin’ about thar Chevy 4x4 and Mary Lou with er big ta ta’s” level of conversation…
Yes, over all, I find people that use profanity in excess to be less intelligent than people that don’t.
No, Twain was referring to the right word. A profane word is a word like any other, and at certain times it is the right word.
No one is saying that using profanity (in moderation or in excess) “vaults” anyone to a higher conversational level. What I (and I think others) am saying is that you can be a smart, literate, polite person and still use profanity.
What does this have to do with anything? I agree with you, but so what? An intelligent debate is certainly preferable (in most instances) to low-class talk about women’s tits. That has nothing to do with profanity, though. It has everything to do with the topic of conversation. If two guys were giggling over a woman’s breast size, it would be stupid regardless of whether they used profanity or not.
Perhaps, but that’s irrelevant. Yes, stupid people use profanity. It does not logically follow that you must be stupid to use profanity.
I find your assumptions odd. I am currently doing my MA at an American university known for being extrememly academic - the quintessential ivory tower, if you will (UChicago). Profanity abounds, not just among the students, but among the professors as well. I’m not saying that people curse excessively, but profanity itself is certainly not linked to being crass and uneducated. It’s not at all odd to hear a professor say “Lacan [or some other famous academic] was a f__cking idiot,” in the middle of office hours or class (although of course they wouldn’t say that at a conference or some other public function).
I love swearing. I swear my fucking arse off every day.
Of course, I don’t do it around great-aunt Gladys or the Presbyterian Ladies’ Auxiliary, but one thing I’ve never understood is the argument anti-profanity people like to put: if you use foul language, you have a poor vocabulary and no imagination.
BULLSHIT!
It’s not about that. I can use “clean” words to really flame the hell out of a person if I choose. But some people don’t deserve that. Some aren’t worth the time and effort when a simple, concise “FUCK YOU!” will suffice.
Having a neralogical thing that I sometimes causes me to feel driven to use profanity I can say it’s hard not to swear at times, but find it deplorable in people with the same problem that use the problem as an excuse to never be resposible for their language. I do not condon their use of swearing with it’s a medical condition as an excuse to never try to control it’s use. It’s still as hurtful to the recipient, and is not their fault. I have had a different problem in the recent past, where my in ability to think and remember quickly resulted in swear words as fillers. Fuck being what came to mind when all else failed. When I say I can’t think, don’t talk until I’m finished I mean it. Hurrying will get you filler words yiou won’t like.
Profanity comes down to , a person losing their inhibitions to say what some consider a taboo word or subject. The word will be considered taboo by some and not all people. You know what words are taboo in general in your comunity, and can choose to respect the taboo of the person you speck to or not. knowing in advance that it will be disrespectful. Sometimes a taboo word will be spoken that you didn’t indend to be disrespectful. At that point you can still use the taboo word showing contempt and disrespect to the person or curtail it’s use in contacts with this person. It comes down to are you respectful of other’s or not. Taboo is forbidden so you don’t need to look it up.
This is my attitude exactly. Of course I don’t do it at work or in front of the Sisters at my kid’s school but at home or out with friends or (especially) in the car, I curse like a pirate. I enjoy using profanity and I enjoy trying to be creative with it. It doesn’t mean I lack for a vocabulary. I can function verbally just fine without it, but I also see it as a rich, expressive and satisfying element of language. In the hands of the right craftsman, profanity can be elevated to almost poetic level. Watch any episode of Deadwood*, for example.
Platitudes like this are nought but intellectual masturbation. A way for the people who spout them to feel smart without actually doing anything to prove it.
This judgmental malarky about swearing and intelligence is really fucking annoying. All it takes are a few seconds to figure out whether the speaker is intelligent or not–regardless of that person’s use of profanity. Also, from a linguist’s perspective–there is no “correct” or “incorrect” way to speak. Language is a social phenomenon. It is used as a way to form social bonds, to communicate very complicated concepts, or to make a political statement. Even dialects that people don’t typically consider “proper” --African American Vernacular English, to name one–have been shown to be extremely systematic and coherent modes of communication. The loathed netspeak of “pwned” and “oh noes” has even been studied by linguists. I did a linguistics project on the very topic–almost every major language that has access to the internet has its own variation of netspeak (all of which, though continuously changing, are extremely systematic), and one study done on the topic actually revealed that U.S. kids who use netspeak in text messages actually do better in English than those who don’t. Why? Because using netspeak requires an intelligent grasp of the underlying structure of the English language in order to be employed.
All of these “improper words” that people belittle actually have extremely useful purposes. Taking the example of netspeak (just because I did some research on it, not that I have a particular allegiance or anything)… Netspeak originated as a form of communication between old-school computer programmers – in this function it was no more or less “improper” than when I used “weed” as a verb to describe the process of physically removing extraneous vinyl from letters that have just been cut from a graphics machine. Netspeak later caught on for gamers, who had to learn to communicate with extreme conciseness and rapidity owing to the fast pacing of many MMORPGs. Now it’s used either ironically or seriously across the internet–all with the intention of making a social connection with another human being.
For an interesting look at netspeak, here’s the Wiki:
Even the word “uh…” has a purpose. It’s a signal of uncertainty or insecurity. It is a form of communication whether you want to believe it or not.
In light of the fact that just about every variation of language that exists has some useful function, are you seriously suggesting that swearing is any different?
My choice to swear is quite political. I was culturally indoctrinated to the belief that good girls don’t swear – which is bullshit. I’m as good as they come and I can curse like a sailor.
It is also linked to class struggle. I’ve spent a lot of time in both worlds and I find that working class people (especially men) tend to swear more often than those in the ivory tower. I was raised in a working class family but I also spend a lot of time in the wasteland of academic snobbery that permeates my university campus. I watch ever-so-polite, first class citizens picketing in the Diag on labor rights and then turn around and treat their local cashier like shit. The difference between them and me is, I’ve been behind that counter before. I’ve had times in my life where I paid for my gas, in nickels, two dollars at a time. So I might be at a university, engaged in intense discourse on any number of theoretical concepts, but I’ll be goddamned if I align myself with the outright hypocrisy of so many in the academic world. No matter where I go in life, those people being shit upon at your local McDonald’s are my comrades. My freedom to swear is a badge of honor–I refuse to bow down to the fucked-up notion of Social Darwinism and I refuse to limit my own self-expression based on something as arbitrary as my gender.
Furthermore, I fail to see how a relatively intelligent person engaged in swearing must necessarily lack a true “understanding of themselves” or proper grasp on the English language. I posit the opposite: My ability to both express myself intellectually AND to utilize curse words in the appropriate social context indicates that I am more creative–I can bend my mind at least two ways and know how to employ a greater range of vocabulary options. It also reveals that I am more understanding of semantic and symbolic nuances in language. Who is really the intellectual superior?***
I swear because I appreciate the aesthetics of a proper Anglo-Saxon expletive. The word “fuck” is simply a joy to utter. You can draw the “fff” sound out like a guttural sibilant, a fuse before the explosion of the hard “k” sound at the end. I love the sharp bite of the word “shit,” the way that “t” at the end snaps off like a dry twig. “Cock” is simply a wonderful word, and “cocksucker” is sublime. I could say “cocksucker” all day. (And probably have, at some point in my life.) I confess more than a little bewilderment that anyone would willfully restrict these gems of the English language from their active vocabulary. At the same time, I have precious little patience for those who suggest that a refusal to use a word means that one has a larger vocabulary, a claim that is plainlu nonsensical on its face. I would gladly pit my vocabulary against that of any of the latter-day Victorians in this thread who would hold my use of “foul” language as a emblematic of my limitations. Because, in such a contest, I can abso-fucking-lutely guarantee I will stomp you dumb pricks flatter than a flounder’s nutsack.
