Took the words out of my fuckin mouth. Seriously, folks: if you think that profanity limits the range of discourse, you have to watch Deadwood. It’ll be a revelation. A brief quote from the show’s bard, with a very minor spoiler that won’t make any sense out of context:
How would that quote be improved by the removal of the profanity?
Daniel
As one of the Original Profaners cited in the OP, I think my use of “horseshit” was justified. It was not part of a stream of profanity, it was an isolated instance used for emphasis. I put it there to express the exasperation that I and I suspect other atheists/agnostics feel with constantly being forced to proffer respect to beliefs we don’t find all that respectable. I’m completely down with a person’s right to hold their religious beliefs, however, I don’t feel that compels me to respect said beliefs. And after awhile it gets tiresome, the way so many people think Christianity is innately less of a superstitious belief than any other variant of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Hence, “horseshit.”
Profanity is all really stupid people can come up with in a hurry.
Fuck
[Beavis and/or Butt-head]
This thread sucks.
[/Beavis and/or Butt-head]
One of the many benefits of profanity is that it drives away uptight people you don’t want to hang out with anyway.
I think sometimes the people who use profanity don’t stop to think about what they are really saying.
For example, this post in a different thread.
The examples used in the second and third paragraphs portray a completely different scenario of what happened on the school bus and in the classroom than what the poster was trying to convey.
If you’re going to throw these words around in your conversation, at least think about what the words are saying.
No, they don’t. For anyone who is not a complete literalist and who thinks that “shit” can only mean “feces” and “fuck” can only mean “to have sex,” then the meaning of that post is perfectly clear.
Profanity has a variety of meanings, depending on context. Anyone who does not realize this has a very weak grasp on the English language.
How so, exactly? The post was perfectly clear and understandable to me. What part of it confused you?
Nobody else has commented on this, so I’ll underline it and strongly agree. Example: Earlier today, I had a frustrating meeting wherein it became clear that the people involved had failed to learn anything from the pain suffered during several prior business cycles and are now preparing to embark on the current cycle with the same level of cluelessness and disorganization, with what will be entirely predictable results. I was quiet but firm during the meeting in expressing my views of this course being not just a mistake but a predictable mistake. And then, after the meeting, heading back to my office, I vented with somebody who shares my opinions: “Why the fuck do they fucking expect to get three fucking months of work done in two fucking weeks without fucking suffering some major fucking consequences? Don’t they fucking remember what fucking happened last fucking time? Fuck.” In this context, profanity is social glue.
Oh, I didn’t say I don’t know people who swear. I know plenty of them. But most of the Montanans I know don’t swear in front of women, or in a public restaurant, or in my bookstore, or a library–indicating that they understand what “polite” means.
This does not apply to teenagers, who seem to think that swearing makes them cool.
I never equated swearing with ignorance. I absolutely equated it with impoliteness, and I think it’s a pretty strong indicator of literacy. Although I know English professors who swear like sailors, there seem to be a lot more sailors that swear like sailors. 
That’s my point. Nobody cares how you talk when you’re having a beer with some friends in your living room. But when you’re loudly saying “fuck this” and “fuck that” in a public place, that’s a textbook example of rude. You can’t possibly be saying it’s polite, right?
Deadwood’s another example of what I was talking about. Again, I know people who swear, but all of them are capable of at least saying “hello” or “pass the butter” without throwing in a bunch of gratuitous and meaningless fucks and shits. What’s the point?
So swearing in front of women is impolite? How, er, quaint. And maybe a bit sexist. Women swear, too, you know. In fact, one of the reasons I swear so much is that I was dating a girl who had an incredibly foul mouth and I got in the habit from talking with her. My wife also swears an incredible amount. Both of these women were polite and literate.
It’s ridiculous to think that use of profanity means one is not a literate person. Again, as I’ve pointed out, much serious literature nowadays uses profanity. It’s been that way ever since the first “fuggin’” in The Naked and the Dead.
Yes, ignorant people cuss a lot. But that does not mean that someone who cusses a lot is ignorant.
Depends on where it is. If I’m in a bar, sure it’s polite.
I hope you now realize that these are not the only purposes, perhaps not even the “fundamental” ones.
Apparently, it’s not.
Yes, it very well might. I some circumstances, like in this thread right here, the “insane drivel” bit comes off as juvenile and effete.
I found the use of “horseshit” to be quite effective and meaningful.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t know of any general mandate against use of profanity in any of the forums.
Okay, so it’s an etiquette issue? Well, etiquette is extremely situational. Now you’ve listed some specific situations in which we can discuss the propriety of strong language. So do you care to rephrase your OP? Perhaps –
– Do people no longer believe it’s impolite to swear in front of women/in a public restaurant/in my bookstore/in the library?
However, you originally pointed out EC use of “horseshit.” Perhaps you want to discuss this issue –
– Why is it okay to swear on the boards?
You have reached a conclusion without any evident chain of reasoning. Please elaborate.
And, now you’ve contradicted yourself.
There seem to be? What are the available samples of English professors and sailors in your Montana town? I’m afraid this one is going to have to be justified by a statistical study.
It was not a point evident in the OP.
Cite to the textbook, please?
This is a strawman argument. You didn’t set forth the parameters of your argument and now you’re asking loaded questions.
Well, for one, you might consider the people you don’t know.
Nonsense. They say exactly what they mean in reasonably precise terms.
Sloppy, lazy, inaccurate – these terms seem to me to apply to the argument you’re trying to make here.
It’s not so much … it’s more that? Intelligence and etiquette are two rather different things. Care to restate the premise of your aregument?
Offer evidence please.
Please offer evidence.
What does this have to do with a general statement about swearing?
Please offer evidence.
Appeal to authority. No points.
Have you seen anyone make the argument that “Profanity used in excess automatically vaults you to a higher conversational level”? Please define the issue you’re debating.
I don’t understand this sentence at all.
Are you saying that this is the only situation in which you’ve heard profanity being used?
You’re doing a great job of taking statements out of context, Ascenray, and generalizing to diffuse arguments. For example, I never said nor implied that literate people never swear. I made no such absolute assertions. I also put this in GQ rather than GD because I knew coming in that I didn’t have studies and backup data–I’m asking a question that honestly puzzles me.
I don’t “hang out” in bars, but the two I most commonly frequent would probably throw you out for swearing loudly and repeatedly because “it isn’t polite.” If you’re having a reasonably quiet discussion at your table and mention that your boss is a fucking asshole, I don’t think anybody would react, but a steady stream of offensive language is annoying and juvenile in the opinion of the people who frequent the bars (and I tend to agree), so you’d be asked to tone it down or take it elsewhere.
Before you try to take this GQ-turned-IMHO into even more of a GD, let me explain that I fully understand that my “data” is based on a non-scientific sample slanted by the fact that people tend to hang out with people like themselves. If we go into a bar together and you say to the waitress, “Hey, cunt, bring me a fucking beer,” then I’m not going to a bar with you again.
This reminded me of Billy Conolly who once described swearing as “an emotional sound effect”. I reckon he nailed it!
No, I think I’m pointing out that you aren’t providing sufficient context for your arguments.
I don’t understand what this means.
And I didn’t say that you did. But you did state or imply some other connections between literacy and swearing, which you offered no justification for.
This makes no sense to me – why is justifying one’s conclusions less important in GQ than GD?
But what I was really pointing out was that your arguments were jumping from one unjustified assumption to another, and then you were behaving as if you had proven something, like the bit about sailors and English professors.
Aha! Now you have provided some context, which is what I was suggesting you do. Your OP seems to be asking one question (or perhaps a vague question) and then your successive arguments seem to be addressing specific situations that you haven’t accounted for in your generalized conclusion.
So, I make a request for you to fine-tune your question. What is it really?
– Why do people think it’s ever okay to swear in any situation?
– Why do people think it’s okay to swear in these forums?
– Why did Evil Captor think it was okay to swear in that thread?
Maybe it’s all of these – maybe there are more you could add to them. But I suggest that thinking about what your question really is and putting it to us in specifics is going to get you a lot further than the way things are going now.
I view (right or wrong) overly polite people as people who are afraid to take a stance or express an opinion or disagree with someone ever.
Example; two peoples response to this ridiculous statement:
“…Whites and Blacks shouldn’t get involved (Romantically) with each other because blah, blah blah…”
An overly polite persons response: “Well, I can see how one would think that way I don’t have a problem with myself but I still respect your views.”
A normal persons response: “Dude, your a fucking nut-job!”
Now tell me: Which of the above guys would you rather hang out with?
Frankly, I’d rather hang out with the person that you labelled as “overly polite.”
Maybe this wasn’t clear from my selection of “General Questions” as a forum, acsenray, but I’m not making assertions, I’m trying to ask questions. If I come across as challenging your position, it’s because I’m trying to draw information out.
It seems so simple to me: it costs me absolutely nothing to stop using the word “nigger” because it bothers people, so I’ll stop. I’m doing it voluntarily, there are a hundred other words or phrases I can substitute, and it prevents me from offending a lot of people. Seems like positive karma and being a good citizen, right? Do you disagree?
Now, substitute “fuck” for “nigger” in that previous paragraph. Do you believe the conclusions should change? If so, why?
So far, the only three responses I’ve seen from the obscenity advocates are:
I don’t care if it offends people
It’s situational. I use it around my buddies, and don’t use it in front of my grandma.
The word ‘fuck’ isn’t offensive.
Responses 1 and 2 are perfectly valid. I have no problem with them. In fact, I expected them.
Response 3 is ignorant. There are millions of people in the U.S. that are offended or annoyed (or at least made uncomfortable) by the word “fuck.” That’s why it isn’t allowed on broadcast TV and why it is factored into movie, music, and videogame ratings.
What I’m really looking for is whether there’s a response 4 (or 5 or 6…) that I didn’t foresee.
I’ll challenge your use of the word “normal.” I would say that a normal person would say something like “You’ve got to be kidding me” or “You’re completely wrong.” I’d rather hang out with the guy in the middle that doesn’t back away from a ludicrous argument and is capable of disagreeing without being offensive.