Why was Gandalf so sure that Sauron & Smaug would help one another, given the chance?

I agree, when Dwarves fell on hard time, they surely brewed their own Ale. They just preferred to wealthy enough to buy their food and ale.

I think even Sauron might not have been aware of the Balrog or he did not have a method to entice to activity outside of Moria.

They could argue about their respective wingspan (or lack therof).

I started a thread on it a while back, but I’m still amused and entertained by the thought of the Balrog getting the Ring.

What, haven’t you seen my definition of moral certainty in other threads?

When I say I’m morally certain, I mean I don’t have a shred of actual evidence. It means I’m letting the spirit of Michael Behe fill me. :smiley:

Which is also known as “Gamer Medium.” :wink:

I feel both happy and sad that I get the joke in the first sentence.

Welcome to Tolkien Geek Purgatory.

Gandalf said it.
I believe it.
That settles it.

LOTR Appendix A III “Durin’s Folk” opines in a footnote that when the Dwarves of Moria dug too deep for mithril and found the Balrog, it had already been awakened by Sauron’s malice. If so, he knew it was there, but either had no means to lure it out or figured it would do a bang-up job keeping the Dwarves out of the greatest stronghold of that age.

Props to Der for finding the quote - even when Saruman was trying to be Dark Lord in Waiting on his own initiative, he was being baby Sauron whether he wanted to or nor.

Good find I had forgotten that part. But does Sauron’s malice implies he knew what he awoke or that his evil will was disturbing and awakening all the other evil within the range of his malice.

I’d say so. I expect that, while Sauron was not entirely certain a terror remained in Moria, certainly hoped so, and did some maiaristic mojo to awake the Balrog just on general evil principles.

I’m merely the lowest of acolytes but looking forward to learning more. Just getting back into Tolkien and boy do I love Middle-Earth!

It’s a master stroke by Sauron but one wonders what the Balrog could have done on the field of battle. That said, Sauron was not quite ready to strike in the Fellowship.

One wonders if that possibility might have been enough reason for Mandos to have allowed Glorfindel back to Middle-Earth, too. (he being one of the few in Arda with “balrog slayer” on his resumé)

Good point and it would clear up the “two Glorfindels” issue.

One aspect of which might have been sending that Watcher-squid thing to guard the Moria gates. Someone only gets in if they really want in, and someone that determined is someone who needs to be Balrog chow.

That is pretty well cleared. Tolkien mused on it often and came down clearly on the side the Glorfindel returned. He leaned towards the idea the Glorfindel came over as a precursor to the 5 Wizards.

Ahh interesting. Makes sense , thanks.

Hang on, I thought Tolkien implied that Glorfindel came back with the Istari? It is not as though there is a ferry service from Aman… did he come over with the host for the War of Wrath, then?

(curse you, slow-reading book-borrowing friend!)

He debated several possibilities on Glorfindel. Glorfindel came over with Gandalf. (Who was the last of the Wizards to arrive) or that he actually showed up in the second age (after the Ring was forged and the tower of Barad-Dur was built) or early in the third age. As to the Wizards it appears the Professor was leaning towards the idea that they came over in 3-4 trips. The Blue Wizards together, Saruman and Radagast together and Gandalf by himself and landing at the Havens appears to be the likeliest.

Tolkien was sure though that Glorfindel was the one and the same as he who died slaying a Balrog. Elves basically did not re-use names and they did get new bodies after a while of varying degree. Whether they re-incorporate as adults or get reborn was not 100% answered but it appeared Tolkien was leaning to the returned to their mature bodies.

Yeah, JRRT decided it wouldn’t be right to have parents produce a kid of their own, only to have him turn out to be somebody else when he grew up.