opens mouth
Uh…ah! Almost got whooshed there.
And galt, thoroughly obliterated by the unstoppable I-know-you-are-but-what-am-I defense, concedes the fight.
Let’s see. Galt calls my post dumbass; you seem to think that is accurate and straightforward.
My original comment, the one that started all this, was exactly correct and accurate. You, however, seem to think that it was wrong and biased.
You therefore call me a moron because you disagree with me. Thank you for the validation of my posts. It’s a nice feeling when all someone can do is resort to ad hominem attacks because they can’t find any other way to refute me. Have a nice day.
Exactly.
Exactly?
So, while Cecil took care to mention some pretty extreme cults, including one whose end famously involved a mass murder/suicide, and specifically pointed out that their members weren’t brainwashed in the sense that the column dealt with – but it was neglect that kept Presbyterians from being cited as amongst the most successful brainwashers in history.
Absolutely correct and accurate. Yeah.
Er, I was obviously wooshed there for a mo’.
Teach me to rush in posts during commercial breaks.
Yes indeed.
Indeed. :rolleyes:
Here (in case you forgotten it) is your original comment:
“In Unca Cecil’s column on brainwashing , he neglected to mention the most successful brainwashers throughout history: organized religions.
They get their paws on young kids, the younger the better, and practically beat it into their impressionable young minds that they have to toe the line and march to the orders of whatever the particular cult says. As a result, the kid grows up to be an adult and believes that nonsense so strongly that in most cases, he’s willing to kill someone else over it.”
Firstly please give your cites for the following religions creating believers so strongly that they are willing to kill someone over religion:
Buddism
Congregationalists (I was brought up in this one)
Amish
Mennonites
Quakers
Unitarian Universalist
Jainism
Secondly in Cecil’s column, he states “Cultists sometimes did crazy things; obviously, alarmists argued, they’d been brainwashed. Calmer sorts eventually established that in most cults physical coercion, an essential element of brainwashing as commonly understood, was missing.”
Please give examples of the standard use of physical coercion in the following religions:
Judaism
Roman Catholicism
Islam
I disagree so strongly with your biased and inaccurate sweeping insults in this thread that I call them moronic. As for refuting you - can you read?!
DooWahDiddy Um: “because your comment had nothing whatsoever to do with the actual column”
Misnomer: “Your OP labeled all organized religions as brainwashing cults. There was nothing accurate about it, and the response you got was not “smartass.”
…
How can you think that the other OP was saying anything even close to what you said? The only thing your OP had in common with the other OP is that you used the word “cult” and the other mentioned a famous cult leader.”
Larry Mudd “Well, that’s just asinine. In most cases? That’s why the world is chock-a-block with murderous methodists and homicidal hutterites, I suppose.”
…
If you had the ability to read, you might have noticed that Cecil points out that “brainwashing” and “indoctrination” aren’t, as many people mistakenly believe, interchangable terms."
Excalibre: “I’m guessing it’s because, as with everything I’ve seen you write, it was utterly moronic and made assertions without any support. I know you take your own views as High Truths - presumably because you don’t want to have to explore or justify them - but the rest of us don’t.”
Left Hand of Dorkness: “Wow, you’re seriously wondering why that was closed? Your suggestion, that religion=brainwashing, dilutes the term to nothingness. If that’s the case, then capitalism, communism, pacifism, patriotism, the Golden Rule, and any other value set that children may learn from their parents qualifies as brainwashing. It’s a ridiculous definition.”
Sample_the_Dog: “I was raised in a Methodist church. My uncle was a minister. When I reached the age of reason, I attended confirmation classes. When the classes were complete, I declined to be confirmed, explaining that I could not make the affirmation because I did not believe it.
And that was that.
…
Your argument, Clothahump, was not only facile but also patently untrue. And the tone was inappropriate for the forum.”
Miller: “Everytime Clothahump posts about religion, I understand exactly how Polycarp feels when he sees a post by a young-Earth creationist.”
All religions operate by exploitation of the fear of death. They instill into their followers the belief that the follower absolutely must obey the tenants and laws and rules of the religion or else Big Juju will cause them unending torment. They have historically taken that to an extreme where they get the followers to kill others because the others don’t believe the same as the religion in question. I refer you to the Eastern Crusades, the Albigensian Crusade and in your own lifetime, the prosection of the Jews and 9/11 for just a few examples.
I asked why the thread was closed, period. I never got a message from whatever admin closed it telling me why it was closed. That was the purpose of my post.
And there is no refutation of what I said. You even quoted me, but you apparently did not bother to read what I said. Given the examples I posted above, are you seriously going to try to say it has never happened? It has happened from day one of mankind’s history up to today.
Ahh. The best part of these rants is when someone says this.
You do realize that what you just said only applies to two religions, correct?
I was somewhat surprised at the rapidity of the closing. It was a comment on one of Cecil’s columns. Whether particularly deep or not, it was a comment on the column. And that’s what that forum is for.
That it is simplistic or repetitive should fall second to whether it is within the perameters of the forum. If it is reduced to name calling as that particular thread had potential for is yet another aspect and personally, I feel that the mod should have waited to see if it would indeed head in that direction. Even then, I would say it would be more correct to move it to the Pit rather than just closing it down.
We as posters should also take into account that the mods are human and have good days and bad days and one more thread/comment/arguement by Clothahump or whomever was more than he/she could take. In addition the mod might well have been contacted by a number of different dopers stating that Clothahump was on yet another rant against organized religion and the consensus was that it was in the wrong forum in spite of the seeming logical placement to outsiders.
It is unfortunate that the mod in question did not give any reasons for the closing, but I realize that is not necessary, but it would have been nice. And as we all know, nice has never been a requirement on the board, but I have seen it happen.
I’d be very interested to see you show how any of this applies to Buddhism. I mean, you did say all religions.
Actually, only some religions operate by exploitation of that sort of fear. Though I think those religions you’re referring to aren’t necessarily worried about death per se, but about what happens after you die. You know, like going to hell and all. Just a little nitpick.
See this is exactly what I’m talking about. You post an absurd exaggeration, then give inadequate evidence.
Do you even read what you write?
None of your examples above apply to any of the religions I quoted. :wally
Gosh, you really are stupid!
Do you not know the difference between “All religions operate by exploitation of the fear of death” and “Some religions operate by exploitation of the fear of death”?
This is a complete refutation of what you said.
Sigh. Yes, I said all religions. Even the Buddhists. Brainwashing someone to the point where they are willing to kill includes being willing to kill themself as well.
http://edinburghnews.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1089102002
http://www.uwec.edu/greider/BMRB/culture/student.work/hicksr/
www.reformation.org/chapter14.html
I will grant that Christianity and Islam are the two worst offenders; that goes without saying. But don’t overlook how it has affected other religions as well.
“However, one cannot remember a time in human history when people were not destroying each other either in the name of religion or in the name of God or even in the name of peace, humanity, universal brotherhood. Great words hiding ugly realities! Christians have been killing Mohammedans, Mohammedans have been killing Christians. Mohammedans have been killing Hindus, Hindus have been killing Mohammedans. Sikhs have been killing Muslims, Muslims have been killing Sikhs. Sikhs have been killing Hindus, Hindus have been killing Sikhs (as recently as 1980s). Religion is not about peace. Nor is it about war. Every religion is about absolute belief in its own superiority and the divine right to impose its version of truth upon others. In medieval times, both the Crusades and the Jihads were soaked in blood. Today, there are Christian fundamentalists who attack abortion clinics in the United States and kill doctors; Muslim fundamentalists who wage their sectarian wars against each other; Jewish settlers who, holding the Old Testament in one hand and weapons in the other, drive Palestinians off their ancestral land; Hindus in India who demolish ancient mosques and burn down churches; and Budhists in Sri Lanka who slaughter Tamil-separatists. Political ideologies, religious ideologies, philosophical ideologies are often facades for murder-- to murder in a justified way.”
www.acsagurdwara.org/relgswars.html
No, it applies to all. See my immediately preceding post.
I love it. Fall back on the good old ad hominem attack when you can’t think of anything else to say.
I stand behind what I said. Exploiting the fear of death is the common basis of ALL religions. And all of them can manipulate their followers to the point where the followers will kill themselves or others, or allow others to kill them. Whether they do or not is beside the point. That’s brainwashing in my book. YMMV and I don’t really care if it does.
You can stand (or hide) behind it or along side it or under it. Your statement is too broad and lacks any support other than your own cherished belief. You have taken that unsubstantiated belief (in which you have not proven that all religions even address a fear of death, much less that they have all exploited that hypothetical concern), and you have made the illogical leap to assert that such (not yet established) exploitation is equivalent to brainwashing–again without demonstrating that all (or even any) religions resort to sleep deprivation, food deprivation, isolation of the individual, or any of the myriad other hallmarks of brainwashing.
You are left with an obstinate belief that you cannot support other than to repeat it incessantly in the face of genuine evidence.
Stand behind it to your heart’s content. You are unpersuasive and you are wrong.
Well, you’re gradually getting the idea. Next up your proof for:
Congregationalists (I was brought up in this one)
Amish
Mennonites
Quakers
Unitarian Universalist
Jainism
as I asked some time ago.
You give an example of a Buddhist dramatically protesting about the Vietnam War by killing himself.
What has this got to do with his religion?
What about other political protests, such as hunger strikes? Are they examples of brainwashing too?
Also from this source:
- All the religions had been promising the people, “If you die in a religious war, your heaven is absolutely certain.”
That’s where you get your exaggeration from! I note that this source doesn’t give cites for this wild claim either.
- But ten thousand years of conditioning has seeped deep into the blood, into the bones, in the very marrow of humanity.
Does that rule out Christianity then?
Does this source think that worshipping Ra the Sun God (or whatever religion was current 10,000 years ago) has led to brainwashing today?
It’s not an ad hominem attack when the evidence is there. 
As for using your own definition of ‘brainwashing’, fine. I assume you’ve given up on proving the physical coercion that Cecil states is necessary. Why not define brainwashing as belief in God? Then you could indeed say that all religions use brainwashing. It wouldn’t mean anything, but that hasn’t stopped you in the past.
Do explain how the fear of death is present in religions that believe in reincarnation.
Oh, and more from your amazing source:
-
Every religion holds very different meaning for different people.
-
The message “Be compassionate to others!” is a basic tenet in Christianity. … It is due to this philosophy that we see Christians doing great deeds of compassion.
-
For instance, it is no longer true to describe either Canada or England as a Christian country, since the vast majority of their respected populations have no traditional ties with any religious body. The church of England alone has closed over nine hundred churches since 1974.
The first two statements don’t agree with you. As for the third, here are the facts:
BRITAIN is still seen as a Christian country by more than three fifths of the public, according to a poll for the Easter weekend.
This ties in with the findings of the 2001 Census which showed that nearly seven out ten people in England and Wales identified themselves as white Christians.
Moreover, a similar proportion of black people and a half of those of mixed ethnic backgrounds also identified themselves as Christians.
So 35% constitutes a ‘vast majority’ huh? :rolleyes:
As for closing the churches:
The Church of England yesterday hastened to reassure vicars anxious about the value of their pensions that it would not default on its financial commitments despite losing between £400m and £500m - up to 10% of the church’s assets - on the stock market.
… a decade ago, when the church commissioners contrived to lose £800m, precipitating the greatest financial crisis in the church’s history since the Reformation, ill-advised property speculation was blamed for the losses.
Since then the church has reduced the percentage of its holdings in property by about one-third, although the proportion remains much higher than that in most other pension funds.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0%2C3858%2C4604546-103690%2C00.html
Oh look! Nothing to do with religion. Just a money problem. Is this ridiculous source really what you rely on?
You can do the homework for yourself. I’ve indulged you enough.
Amigo, you can pick and choose any cult or cults that you so desire. It doesn’t matter which ones you pick, they all function the same way. Here, prove it for yourself.
Pick at least three religions widely seperated by time and/or distance. I like to use Christianity because it’s current and everyone is passingly familiar with it. Let’s add the Greek pantheon and the human sacrifices of the Aztecs. You may add or substitute as desired, but I suggest you don’t go below three.
Question: what is their common goal, and how do they accomplish that goal? Look at them from an historical and social point of view, because the theologies are all different and you can’t compare apples and oranges.
Get back to us with the results. Big hint: if you do this with an open mind and a willingness to learn, it will take you quite some time. It took me nearly 20 years in pre-Internet days; it shouldn’t take you more than 6 months or so using the Internet as a resource. You’ll still have to spend time in libraries reading, though.