Why were African civilizations so technologically far behind?

[lskinner]

@slaphead

what appears to me to be a blatant pile of racist nonsence.

i.e. it contradicts your prejudices.

if IQ scores were directly measuring useful intelligence (which is debateable), then people in that country would barely be smart enough to operate a frying pan, let alone raise kids, cook meals, make clothes, operate machinery and all the other things which they demonstrably do every day. How is that supposed to work?

Not very well, apparently. List of countries by services output:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_services_output

[pizzabrat]

@lskinner

Not very well, apparently. List of countries by services output:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_services_output

Uh, did slaphead say anything about industrial exports?

[pizzabrat]

@pizzabrat

Uh, did slaphead say anything about industrial exports?

Make that “services output”.

[pizzabrat]

Geeze, that mistake took all the steam out of my reply, but that link only says that the small country of Equadoral Guniea has a small service industry. Do you think that proves that they can’t cook and clothe themselves?

[clairobscur]

@lskinner

i.e. it contradicts your prejudices.

Ludicrous. Believing that a country could have an average IQ of 59 doesn’t make sense. The issue wouldn’t then be being unable to maintain a performing insurance system, as you seem to think, but that a large part of the population would be unable to perform basic tasks, if it were true.

[pizzabrat]

@pizzabrat

Geeze, that mistake took all the steam out of my reply, but that link only says that the small country of Equadoral Guniea has a small service industry. Do you think that proves that they can’t cook and clothe themselves?

Eh, that’s “cook for and clothe themselves”.

[RickJay]

@lskinner

i.
Not very well, apparently. List of countries by services output:

If an entire country had an average IQ of 59, their service output would not be low, it would be nonexistent. They would all be dead. People with such IQs cannot function without substantial support. 59 is at the level of profound, crippling mental disability; fewer than 1 in 200 humans are that retarded.

[OneCentStamp]

@Anne Neville

;j

Best nonverbal reply ever.

[holmes]

@mr. jp

However, even if this list is flawed, the factor of IQ might still be important. And there is some evidence that the people from africa at least have somewhat lower IQs on average.

The question is whether that ‘low’ IQ is based on genetics or on environment and what that means. As noted, how many of us high IQ could start a fire in the wild, or find fresh water?

There’s a difference in the Africa and African peoples of 2-3 thousand years ago and those suffering the results of colonalization, today.

[pizzabrat]

@holmes

There’s a difference in the Africa and African peoples of 2-3 thousand years ago and those suffering the results of colonalization, today.

:dubious:

Are you claiming that Africans didn’t spend their entire existence as starving citizens of the third world?

[Sailboat]

@levdrakon

Ah, you’re pinging on the word “priest.” I don’t mean the guy in robes who conducts Sunday mass. I’m mostly talking about the upper class, wealthy, royalty, nobility, ruling leisurely classes in any civilization who had the time to learn to read & write & contribute to technological & scientific advancement.

So, you’re saying, you invented your own definition for the word “priests”, well outside any conventional understanding of the word, and defended it for several tries when it was clear others didn’t understand your secret, made-up definition?

I will grant you that if you’re claiming that people who advanced science are the ones who advanced sience, you’re onto something.

But priest has a specific meaning. So does Christian, and yet there is much evidence for Jewish and Muslim contributions to advancement.

By far the biggest irony of this thread is that you’d specifically cite Galileo as an example of Christian clergy advancing science.

Sailboat

[lskinner]

@RickJay

If an entire country had an average IQ of 59, their service output would not be low, it would be nonexistent. They would all be dead. People with such IQs cannot function without substantial support. 59 is at the level of profound, crippling mental disability; fewer than 1 in 200 humans are that retarded.

Cite?

[holmes]

@pizzabrat

:dubious:

Are you claiming that Africans didn’t spend their entire existence as starving citizens of the third world?

Yes.

[Zeriel]

@lskinner

Cite?

See wikipedia’s page on IQ, under the standard US system of converting standard deviations to IQ points, a 59 is on the low end of Educable Mentally Retarded–which in general means that they need to be placed in special “life skills”-type classes through elementary and high school and can’t be expected to exercise any imagination in any field. Additionally, at that low an IQ they’d be seriously on the borderline of functional illiteracy–for reference, Charlie in “Flowers for Algernon” was supposedly in the 50-60 IQ range at the beginning of the novel.

Additionally, since IQ is a statistical comparison, an IQ of 59 is slightly less than 0.4th percentile–I find it hard to believe that entire countries could average so low unless SOMETHING is skewed about the way IQ is being measured or reported in this particular case.

This without even talking about such things as historical variance in IQ, environmental effects on IQ, the correlation of IQ to “success” in any particluar endeavor, and a host of other potential factors.

Hijack over.

[Burrido]

@lskinner

Cite?

In addition, with an average IQ of 59, that would be considered Mild Mental Redardation. Check wiki’s own links for the classifications. Generally characteristics are:

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000215/1059.html
http://www.cloudnet.com/~edrbsass/mrcharacteristics.htm

[levdrakon]

@Sailboat

So, you’re saying, you invented your own definition for the word “priests”, well outside any conventional understanding of the word, and defended it for several tries when it was clear others didn’t understand your secret, made-up definition?[

This is getting silly. Here, priest.

Priests have been known since the earliest times and in the simplest societies (see shaman and oracle). There are priests in some branches of Christianity, Shintoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, and many other religions, though each culture has a local denomination for the priestly office. Priests are generally regarded as having good contact with the deities of the religion to which he or she ascribes, and other believers will often turn to a priest for advice on spiritual matters. In many (but not all) religions, being a priest is a full-time assignment, ruling out any other career.[bolding & underlining mine]

How is it these people can devote themselves full-time to being priests unless they live in a civilization that can support them?

I will grant you that if you’re claiming that people who advanced science are the ones who advanced sience, you’re onto something.

And you’re claiming they weren’t Christians, educated in Christian schools, founded by the church and people like, I dunno - someone help me out here- Christian bishops & popes? Cite please.

But priest has a specific meaning. So does Christian, and yet there is much evidence for Jewish and Muslim contributions to advancement.

Much evidence? Cite please.

By far the biggest irony of this thread is that you’d specifically cite Galileo as an example of Christian clergy advancing science.

Sailboat

I think it’s hilarious you cite an article that specifically states Galileo was a devout Catholic. Also,

Galileo was reburied on sacred ground at Santa Croce in 1737. He was formally rehabilitated in 1741, when Pope Benedict XIV authorized the publication of Galileo’s complete scientific works (a censored edition had been published in 1718), and in 1758 the general prohibition against heliocentrism was removed from the Index. On 31 October 1992, Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how the Galileo affair was handled, as the result of a study conducted by the Pontifical Council for Culture.

Also, from Wikipedia’s entry on the Roman Catholic Church
:

Historians of science including non-Catholics such as Heilbron, Alistair Cameron Crombie, Lindberg, Grant, and Thomas Goldstein have been revising the common notion — the product of black legends say some — that the Church has had a negative influence in the development of civilization. They argue that not only did the monks save and cultivate the remnants of ancient civilization during the barbarian invasions, but the Church promoted learning and science through its sponsorship of many universities which grew rapidly in Europe in the 11th and 12th centuries, under its leadership. The Church’s priest-scientists many of whom were Jesuits were the leading lights in astronomy, geomagnetism, meteorology, seismology, and solar physics, becoming the “fathers” of these sciences. John Cardinal Newmann used to say in the nineteenth century that those who attack the Church can only point to the Galileo case, which to many historians does not prove the Church’s opposition to science since many of the churchmen at that time were encouraged by the Church to continue their research. [bolding and underlining mine].

I love that word, “priest-scientists.” But according to you, I’m just making stuff up.

[mr.jp]

Ok, lets end that priest definition argument, and start over.

Levdrakon, try to tell us again, what is your claim about christianity and European dominance? (And make sure you read my post 56 before you answer.)

[lskinner]

@Burrido

In addition, with an average IQ of 59, that would be considered Mild Mental Redardation.

I’m a little confused. Are you saying that Mild Mental Retardation is the same thing as “profound, crippling mental disability”?

[levdrakon]

@mr. jp

Ok, lets end that priest definition argument, and start over.

Levdrakon, try to tell us again, what is your claim about christianity and European dominance? (And make sure you read my post 56 before you answer.)

This is your post #56:

Yeah. In the period in which everyone had to be connected to the church, of course there was no science without the church. But this doesn’t mean that christianity was a helpful factor.

Im not sure how to make this any clearer. Perhaps this analogy:
In the time when the black plague reigned in europe, there were no scientists who didn’t have problems with that. But that doesn’t mean that the plague was good for science.

I’m not sure I understand your analogy. You’re saying the plague is like Christianity. A bad thing. In the end, things worked out, but we shouldn’t give the plague any credit, any more than we should give Christianity any credit?

[elelle]

An interesting thought on the survival of African Culture, in the US, at least, but pretty much spreading worldwide: Music. African musical tradition, grounded in African spirituality and culture, has survived the duress of US slavery, to swell and influence the US and world culture. African tradition was the genesis of American Jazz and then, Rock & Roll, which has had an incredible transforming effect on Western European society, worldwide. Rock, Blues, Rap, Post-rap: it’s the main world music now. So, in talking about technology, ya know, Africa ideas are now the driving base music wise.

The musical ability of that culture is an inkling of what African culture is, a very strong spiritual and oral mode of being, that is different from the European mode of thought, yet equally valid.

Would like to hear crux thought on this.