I get the feeling you’re misunderstanding why humanity was created. According to the Bible, people were created to freely choose whether or not to be with God. If you have such a dislike for His4ever’s deity, then why would you want to go to heaven at all? He’s just giving you what you asked for. As far as being sinners, our choices have consequences. There would be no real choice if the outcomes were all the same. Adam and Eve screwed us over. Instead of just writing off humanity, God devised a way to 1) allow us access to him 2) sift out those who are really serious about making a committment, and 3) Hi Opal! If it was easy, then it wouldn’t be worth anything. Am I making sense?
Well…let’s assume (and it’s a big assumption) that just looking at the world around proves there’s a creator…
- It tells nothing about this creator, or about what he would request from his creatures (or even that he would request/expect something from them). Let alone about jesus being our savior. So, by this logic, I should be fine if I assume the world must have a creator and I worship, say, Quetzalcoatl and offers him bird feathers from time to time…Or just think this creator messed up when he created an imperfect word and don’t care about him at all…Reasonning this way, anybody believing in any creation myth should be fine…
- It still doesn’t imply that people should be tortured forever if they fail to notice that that there should be a creator. Since when being wrong or not paying attention deserves torture? And in this case, eternal torture? Who else than a cruel being would decide that anybody who fails an arbitrary test should be awfully tortured?
You’ve decidly a long way to go to convince me that the version of god you’re believing in could be “loving” in any sensible way…
Taking another example: the aztec sun god was supposed to be burning and to suffer permanent torments, and that because he willingly accepted to take this job in order to allow the world to goes on…Though in practice (human sacrifices) his worship was much more nefarious than modern christiannity, in theory, this god is much more deserving of human’s worship since he accepted to sacrifice himself (and not just for a couple of days) to avoid something he wasn’t responsible of (contrarily to the christian god and hell).
Once again, if you want your god to be “loving”, find another one. If he was loving, he wouldn’t have created people who are necessarily sinners (or do you think someone, using his free will can not be a sinner? I strongly doubt it, since it would run contrarily to the basic tenets of christian faith which says that we are all sinners, and cannot escape this condition), and then decided that all these sinners (everybody) would have to be tortured (in other words to be tortured for being just what they are…what he created them to be).
The whole reddeming by the sacrifice of Christ thing makes no sense, either. Let’s take once again a real example : I’m going on a killing rampage in a school. then suddendly I decide that I would rather not kill a couple of kids. But in my twisted mind, for some reason, I think that if I don’t kill them, someone has to suffer anyway to make for it, so I fire a bullet in my own foot, spare the two kids and then goes on killing the others. Does it makes any sense? Am I in any way “loving” because I spared two kids, rather than being just a cold-hearted child-killer? Was there any sensible reason why I needed to shoot my own foot (sacrifice my son) if I wanted to spare the kids, rather than just deciding not to kill them? If I state that I only kill the 7 y.o. because they’re under six feet tall (because they’re sinners), knowing perfectly that all 7 y.o. are necessarily under 6 feet tall (all humans are sinners) is it any different than saying that I intend to kill all childrens?
And according to some posters here, to “freely” choose between god and eternal torment. Like in : “you can freely choose to vote for the party or to get a bullet in the head”.
I never asked to be tortured forever, as His4ever believe I will (a concept which doesn’t seem to prevent her for sleeping, apparently, nor to worship my future tormentor).
But according to the christian theology we have no choice. We are all sinners, and there’s no way to avoid being one…
I hope that none of your great-grand father committed any crime, or else, I expect you to ask to be sent to jail…
You’re forgetting that god is supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing. Hence he knew what kind of being is was creating, and couldn’t be surprised by the result. It’s not like he could have been surprised by the outcome and had to decide whether he should forget about this messed up experiment or not…Anyway, writing off humanity would be way less cruel than deciding to torture forever its member. Finally, he was under no obligation to decide to make any reprisal, be it “writing off humanity” or send people in an eternal fire. He could have just let Adam and Eve eat their apple and let it at that.
He didn’t need to devise any way to allow us access to him…He just had to decide that we’ll have access to him. I don’t need to devise a complicated scheme to decide who can enter my home. I just have to tell them “come in”. If I need to devise a way, I probably suffer for some sort of mania or obsessive compulsive disorder.
As for those who aren’t serious, he doesn’t need to punish then in any way. “Come in or I’m going to shoot you in the head” isn’t an aceptable behavior…
Why so??? 
Why should it be worth less? Would people be less happy in heavens if they aren’t amongst the “select few”? Like proud members of a club? Wouldn’t it be more logical for a loving god to say “I created humans beings with the intent that they’ll be happy forever”, rather than "with the intend that they’ll be tortured forver, except for some of them which will have followed arbitrary and tortuous paths?
Even in the opposite situation (if it were very easy to enter Heanvens and very difficult to end up in hell), it still wouldn’t be morally acceptable since no crime (necessarily limited in scope and duration) can possibly deserves an eternal punishment. Let alone an arbitrary “crime” like choosing a brand of faith rather than another.
Honnestly, if it was the truth, I’d rather have been “written off” than ending being tortured forever by this capricious god…
Err…IMO, no…
If for some reason, I believed with certainty that there’s actually a creator and an evil deceiver, I would be 100% sure that people worshipping a being who clearly tells he will torture men who don’t follow him are worshipping the evil deceiver, and I would stay as far away as I could from this satanic sect…
Excuse me, but God didn’t create sinners. Humans became that on their own. God created a perfect man and woman with a mind and free will to decided whether to believe and obey Him or not. Along came the tempter and they decided to listen to him. God didn’t want programmed robots. It is man who caused the sin problem, not God. God provided the solution for anyone who chooses to accept it.
There’s no such think as the mythology of Satan. Myth has nothing to do with it. God, in His word, says he’s a real being, an angel. Accept it or not, he is not a myth. That’s just what he wants you to think.
I don’t think you understand the implications of what it means to know all. When god created man, he KNEW exactly what, when, and why mankind would mess up and sin. He made us imperfect, because a perfect man would not be able to make mistakes.
Since god created us that way, and did so knowing what we would do, he is responsible for our actions. As he could have prevented them. But didn’t. He created Hell, knowing we would go there if we didn’t grovel to him. He allowed us to go there, therefore making us go there. And being responsible for us going there.
If I know that a person is going to go kill a bunch of people, I have the power to stop him, but Instead of stoping him I allow him to do his thing, I become responsible for his actions. It is the same for your god. He is responsible for us sinning because he allows it. Choice means nothing. He is responsible for sending people to hell. He allows it, and by implication supports it.
It’s all yours vanilla, if you want to keep putting your 2 cents worth in. I see that they still do not understand the whole nature and character of God. They consider Him and His plan of salvation to be cruel because they thing evidently they should be able to ignore His love gift, do any thing they please and be patted on the head and welcomed into heaven. I don’t know exactly what the Lord will do about those who’ve never heard, I leave that with Him. I know that if they do go to hell, their existence there will probably be good compared to those who deliberately rejected God’s provision. He’s probably holding back Jesus’ return to give our missionaries in foreign lands time to reach more of the lost. God is more that just love according to His word, despite what Lekatt and many others beleive. Do the words holy, righteous, pure, without sin mean anything to you guys? God didn’t mess it up, we did. He has the right to decide how we’re to come to Him. His holiness demands payment for sin and that payment is death, Romans 6:23. His love provided the solution. If you want to reject that solution and pay for your sins for yourself, God will honor that. I choose to trust in what’s been done for me by Jesus on the cross.
Sorry, I can’t agree with that. God isn’t responsible for our sinning, we are. Adam and Eve were. They made the wrong choice. It may make you feel good and comfy to blame God for sin, death, and hell but it doesn’t change reality. If you’re God, you either create people programmed to do what’s right or you take a risk and create people with the freedom to choose. He took that risk. He made thinks clear to people, told them the consequences of their decisions and actions. I’ve said it in my recent post and I’ll say it again. We messed it up, not God.
Wow, His4Ever, we found one thing we agree upon – God didn’t create this mess here on earth, man did. But we must have different Gods, mine does not condemn, torture and kill His children like yours does. I like mine better and will stay with Him.
You said God “took a chance” on creating man, that convinced me our Gods are different. Mine don’t take chances, He knows what He is doing. Mine knew that His children would make mistakes learning to grow in His spiritual nature so He made provisions for them to learn and grow in the safe and secure nature of His love. My God is unconditional love, He doesn’t harm anyone and is always there when someone calls upon Him.
Love
Leroy
What did God do before he created the universe?
He was preparing Hell for people who asked such questions!
St Augustine
Well, obviously you yourself have freely chosen to reject God, so I’m not really sure what you’re arguing here. Are you saying that your own choice somehow doesn’t count?
What’s your point here? You never asked to be born, either.
…except accepting Christ into your heart as your Lord and personal Savior. You don’t want that, fine. God won’t force you to join Him.
Bad analogy. My point is that our choices impact others. If I decide to get a gun and shoot someone, that choice is going to impact the person I shoot. Conversely, if I decide to open a homeless shelter, my choice will impact the people that I help.
The point of the experiment, as far as I understand it, was to allow people to choose whether or not to serve God.
God doesn’t have any obligations to anyone. He’s God. He does stuff because he wants to. I don’t know why He chose to have fire and whatnot in hell, but apparently He did. I don’t have an answer for you.
Yes, but then their actions wouldn’t have had any consequences. A choice without consequences is meaningless.
Remember that small matter of sin? Sinners can’t even look God in the face without dying/being obliterated. The salvation message is God saying “come in”. He’s not going to push you into the door, He’s just going to ask you.
… for a human being. He’s God. He has power over life and death. And let me get this straight. You don’t want to be with God. But at the same time it would seem that you want to either go to heaven, or go to someplace with all the benefits of God without having to acknowledge Him in any way.
Look, I gotta go to class, so I’ll reply to the rest of this later.
Ah, so that’s the plan.
Everybody must have heard of him, before he’ ll establish his reign on earth.
That’s a brilliant plan.
So first he creates man. What, 4000 BC?
He waits 3400 years before he starts writing stuff down about himself, in the Torah. All people born and died all over the world before that, fry in hell. They haven’t heard of him.
He waits another 600 years before he sends another message, in the form of his son. All people born and died all over the world before that fry in hell, they haven’t heard of him. Plus all the Jews, they were misreading his book.
After another 100 years he writes a new chapter, the OT. All people born and died all over the world before that, fry in hell. They haven’t heard of him. Plus the Jews, who reject him. Plus all the new Christians that were not worshipping along these new lines .
He waits another 1600 years before he writes the KJV. All people, born and died all over the world before that, fry in hell. They haven’t heard of him, plus the Jews who reject him, plus all other Christians that were reading his new OT chapter wrongly.
Now, another 400 years later, we still have to wait untill everyone has learned outdated english and has read the KJV.
Then he’ll come and judge us.
Now I know what people mean when they say that one day, in God’s reckoning, needn’t mean the same time as for us humans.
Have you any idea how many people we are talking about, that are going to fry in hell???
And still you keep a srtaight face and speak of his love.
Not only do you keep a straight face, you seem to revell in the idea of so many people suffering!
You and your god are disgusting.
OK. Fine…So, it means that (at least some) people can entirely avoid sin, hence don’t need their unexistant sins to be redeemed, and will go straight to heavens ?
If you answer yes, it means that the sacrifice of Jesus isn’t necessary for everybody. These people have deserved their spot in Heavens by their own merits, and don’t need a savior.
If you answer no, it means that all men are necessarily sinners, that there’s no way out, as I wrote above, hence that God, who is all-powerful and had total control on who he created, chosed to make them so. He didn’t give to any of us the ability not to sin (but nevertheless intend to punish us for not having this ability).
So, what is your answer?
Assuming you’re right…I what way exactly am I responsible for Adam and Eve actions? And why should we go to hell because they messed up? Suppose that on the judgment day, God tells you : “you accepted Jesus as your savior, but since Clairobscur didn’t, everybody is going to hell”… Is that OK with you?
Ok…So, once again, would you say that we actually have the choice not to sin?
If we don’t, it means created us unable to avoid hell, hence choose to send us all to hell. We have actually no choice. We’re doomed from the start, and our so called “free-will” is only an ability to choose how we’re going to sin, in no way an ability to choose whether we will sin or not.
If we do, there are people who have no need for Jesus redeeming sacrifice…
He took a risk? You mean that he didn’t know what will be his creation like? He was clueless? I used to believe he was omniscient, or something?
And apparently not only he took a risk, but he fumbled his experiment so much that out of billions of the people he created, there isn’t even one who acted according to his expectations (not sinning). I would call that a total and utter failure.
Or alternativelyhe knew what the result will be and decided to create people who will all bi sinners, and would all deserve to burn forever (according to his own arbitrary decree : if you do this or that during you incredibly short life, or even during only one minute of this life, you deserve for some reason to suffer forever…I’m not sure how it can appear “just” to you)
Nope. He definitely didn’t make things clear, as proven by the fact that I don’t even believe in him. If he had made things clear, I would know he exists, I would know what are the “choices” offered (do that or I’m going to torture you…fine guy, really…), and I would freely make a choice. But as it stands now, I’ve zero reason to believe in him. Nor has your average muslim or buddist. So, obviously, he didn’t make things clear.
You sound like you’re happy to “know” that other people will be tortured forever (and for what? for not having taken at face value a statement made in some old book amongst myriads of other similar books…indeed…the punishment is perfectly adapted to the “offense”), or at the very least like it doesn’t bother the slighest bit… “ho! My neighbor brought home another of these little boys! I’m wondering what he will do to him this time and if this one will scream longer and louder than the previous one? I’m under the impression that he’s harsher with the blond-haired than with the brown haired… Did I tell you that this man is very polite and positively charming, by the way?”
God didn’t create humans to automatically be happy forever. Nor did he create humans to be tortured. He created human beings to freely choose whether or not they want to be with Him. And quite frankly, to be apart from God forever will be much greater torture than the flames.
God is the definer of morals. If he decided that the color yellow was sinful, then it would be so. He also decides the punishment for different things. Just because you have decided in your heart that nothing deserves eternal negative consequences doesn’t make it so.
Okay. That has no real bearing on what will happen to you, though.
So you have freely decided to reject God. Which was the point of the whole experiment.
sigh I get the feeling I’ll be called to the Pit before all this is over…
Latro I strongly suggets you shove it up your ass.
Of course there is a way out, silly. Haven’t you been told it many times. Granted, some people get a little ocnfused by it, but I’m sure God isn’t too picky. If He expected anything unreasonable of us, He’d have told me.
He is not, in any event, punishing us. rather, He is simply not allowing sinners to enter into his kingdom. He is the gatekeeper. Look at Jesus’ parables. God does not ever throw people into the fire, but rather excludes them from Heaven.
His question was always whether you had built up treasure on Earth or in Heaven.
I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood. There isn’t anyone who is without sin or can earn heaven by their own merits. Jesus’ sacrifice is for everyone. Romans 3:23-24 says “As it is written, THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE: THERE IS NONE THAT UNDERSTANDETH, THERE IS NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD.” Also concerning earning salvation by our own merits, Ephesians 2:8-9 state “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works lest any man should boast.”
We inherited the sin nature from Adam and Eve. They had the ability to make a choice not to sin so but they chose to disobey.
Here are a few more scriptures to ponder:
Romans 5:1 - Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Romans 5:18-19 - Therefore as by the offense of one (Adam) judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one (Christ) the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so shall the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." No this doesn’t mean everyone is automaticall saved. There’s other scriptures to refute that.
You say there’s no way out. Yes, there is a way out. God provided it. If you don’t want to accept that way, then don’t blame the Lord for what happens to you. Stop blaming God for choosing to create men with freedom of choice. There is a plan for you not to receive punishment. I can’t help it if you don’t like His plan, you’ll have to talk to Him about that. It’s your choice to accept it or not. He won’t force you.
I have a feeling nothing I say is going to make any difference to you. You’ve decided to blame God for everything wrong and that’s your choice.
Learn to Love, fundamentals rarely teach anything about love. While it is love that brings one closer to God. Those who teach fear move further and further away from God. They do not feel His love and acceptance, so they continue teaching their fear, which is all they know. Don’t be caught in cycle. Find out about God’s love for you and His acceptance, God does not punish anyone for anything. All are safe in His love.
Love
Leroy
:rolleyes: Sighh…get off it clairobscur, ok? Neither God, nor I, nor any other Christian are happy knowing people will be in hell forever. God desires that no one perish. Hence, provision for our salvation through Jesus coming and dying for our sins. Either accept His provision or not, and bear the consequences. The above little story of yours has nothing to do with God. It seems that you’re very angry with God. Why is that? He is sovereign, is he not? He created the universe and everthing in it. He’s all powerul, all knowing, everywhere at once, etc. He is holy, pure, righteous. He has the authority to say what’s what, not us. We answer to Him, not the other way around. He is also love and has demonstrated that love in providing a way for anyone who will come. I’m sorry you don’t like that. Your accusations that God is cruel and enjoys torture isn’t true, period.