Why would israeli citizens settle in disputed regions?

[Ramira]

@Ibn_Warraq

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Ah yes, the Jewish population of Morocco dropped from 280,000 to just a few thousand not due to large scale anti-Semitism in. Morocco but due to “the Mossad”.

Of course you try to seize on this historical fact to make a distortion to cover your ignorance and make a straw man to imply I am making a conspiracy argument.

You pretend of course that I have not already mentioned discrimination and impoverishment as reasons, and you try to distort what I have written by taking this out of context to cover your ignorance and

However, there was a very real and substantial effort that is quite documented by theMossad to promote immigrationspecifically from Morocco as the deep source of Jewish population. It is not even controversial, the operation is quite known and claimed with pride.

Again of course I did not write this was THE reason, only it was contribution.

Are we next going to hear that pew polls showing how virulently anti-Semitic Morocco is are a result of an “anglophone Jewish conspiracy”?

No, I will say that you are repeating exagerations and propaganda from dubious and deeply prejudiced sources you have lapped up in English wihtout having any direct sense from reliable sources.

You are much attached to your pretensions of knowledge of the region.

I also notice that your own source contradicts your claims by pointing out that News started fleeing as soon as Israel was established.

I cited to the source as an illustration that even a biased source admits that there was no ethnic cleansing in Morocco.

In fact one can find in the French sources which is less subject to the American centric extremist propoganda very reasonable discussions of the exodus of the Moroc

Here from Yigal Bin Nun of University of Tel Avis, a discussion of the reasons for the Jewish departure which refutes your gross distortions and know-all claims based on Mashrek

L’émigration juive après l’indépendance du Maroc s’effectua clandestinement entre 1956 et septembre 1961. Ce n’est qu’après ce qu’on appelle « l’accord de compromis » conclu entre Israël et Hassan II que commença l’évacuation de la communauté entre le 28 novembre 1961 et la fin 1966. À la question pourquoi les Juifs quittèrent le Maroc, la cause immédiate serait une « psychose de départ » qui s’empara de cette communauté. Etant donné que dans la période évoquée ces départs s’effectuèrent dans une atmosphère de discrétion, on ne pouvait évaluer convenablement leur ampleur. Les média ne publiant pas de données sur ce sujet tabou, chacun alimentait son imagination de ce qu’il pouvait observer et en déduire. Dans l’imaginaire juif de l’époque, le rythme de l’émigration avait atteint des proportions telles que chaque famille juive pensait que tous ses proches avaient déjà quitté le pays et qu’elle était une des dernières à n’avoir pas pris son destin en main. Ceux qui n’avaient pas encore quitté savaient pertinemment que tôt ou tard ils seraient contraints de le faire.

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Jewish emigration after the independence of the Morocco clandestinely occurred between 1956 and September 1961. It is only after the so-called “compromise agreement” reached between Israel and Hassan II began the evacuation of the community between November 28, 1961 and the late 1966. To the question why the Jews left the Morocco, the proximate cause would be a “departure psychosis” that seized this community. Because in the mentioned period these departures are conducted in an atmosphere of discretion, could not properly assess their magnitude. The media publishing data on this taboo subject, each fed his imagination of what he could observe and deduce. In the Jewish imagination of the time, the pace of emigration had reached proportions such that each Jewish family thought that all his family had already left the country and was one of the last to failing to take its destiny in hand. Those who had not yet left knew full well that sooner or later they would be forced to do so.

It is the same observation as the famous author David Bensoussan who wrotes in responding to Jew of Morocco(that is in French, Juif du Maroc, a blog by a Jewish resident of Casablanca) blog

Peut-on dire des Juifs marocains qu’ils sont des réfugiés au même titre que les Juifs d’Égypte chassés dans les vingt-quatre heures ou les Juifs d’Irak ou de Lybie qui firent l’objet de massacres?
Il faut s’entendre sur la définition d’un réfugié. Il y a des réfugiés en temps de guerre et cela n’est pas le cas des Juifs marocains. Il y a un ensemble de conditions qui font que l’on ne voit plus son avenir dans son pays natal et cela convient mieux à la condition des Juifs marocains.

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Can we say Moroccan Jews that they are refugees in the same way as the Jews of Egypt expelled within 24 hours or the Jews of Iraq or Libya which were the object of massacres?

It is necessary to agree on the definition of a refugee. There are refugees in time of war and this is not the case of the Moroccan Jews. There are a set of conditions that make that one no longer sees its future in his homeland and it suits better the condition of the Moroccan Jews

All this is to confirm the case that your distortions are not historical. The Jewish case of Morocco is well diferrent than that of those of the Mashrek. It is not to say no discrimination and no problems.

It is only to emphasize again that to pretend the case of Morocco was “ethnic cleansing” or comparable to the cases of the Mashrek countries is to make gross distortions that are falsehoods and propaganda.

The Jewish population of Morocco had good reason to profit in immigration to better their lives, but it was not in the face of the violences and goverment terror and backed cleansing like in the Iraq, like in the Egypt, in the Libye etc…

[Ibn_Warraq]

Ah yes, pew polls are “biased” and “dubious”.

You have previously argue that sources which are “Jewish” and “anglophone” aren’t to be trusted.

You also are now declaring “Americacentric” sources aren’t to be trusted.

Why do you think pew polls aren’t to be trusted?

Do you think the people running Pew are “Zionists” of some sort?

Please tell me why polls showing high levels of anti-Semitism in Morocco(88% of all Moroccans say they disapprove of Jews) are untrustworthy?

Also, when it was pointed out that the first source you posted supported your contention that Jews started fleeing in massive numbers you started declaring without posting any evidence, that it was inaccurate?

Did you read it?

I also said nothing nothing about them being the victims of “government backed terror”.

Is your position that Palestinian Arabs who fled after hearing of the Dir Yassin massacre aren’t victims of ethnic cleansing because the Hagannah didn’t back it?

[Ibn_Warraq]

Anyway, this is a really pointless argument and off-topic but when virtually an entire community flees because they face bigotry and persecution to claim it’s not ethnic cleansing is massively pedantic.

At least the Israeli apologists who insist that the Naqba wasn’t a result of ethnic cleansing can point to there being more Arab Israelis now living in Israel than at the time before the Naqba.

[Ramira]

I am no longer playing the pedantry straw man games.

@Ibn_Warraq

… You have previously argue that sources which are “Jewish” and “anglophone” aren’t to be trusted.

I have never argued such a thing at all, this is a gross distortion and a false claim although it is no surpise to see you do this.

You also are now declaring “Americacentric” sources aren’t to be trusted.

no I did not. I said that certain kinds of biased american centric sources can not be trusted for this subject matter. Not “american centric sources”

You deliberately distort to distract.

Why do you think pew polls aren’t to be trusted?

Do you think the people running Pew are “Zionists” of some sort?

Do you think that playing word games with Zionist you make an argument?

I know well you want to try to distort and to paint me as in your stereotype of Muslim arab paranoide anti-semite as your strawman to argue against.

Please tell me why polls showing high levels of anti-Semitism in Morocco(88% of all Moroccans say they disapprove of Jews) are untrustworthy?

I respond to your adjectives of virulence and the characterisations you make, not Pew polls . I am not playing your word games any further, the idea that morocco is so virulent is quite laughable when one knows the country in reality and does not rely on second hand proganda. It is the sole country in the arabe region to have a state museum to its Jewish heritage and where the historical and the living jewish centres are maintained with state funds and where Muslim and Jew attend the popular Jewish moussems, and where the economic elite is significantly Jewish as well. it is a strange ‘ethnic cleansing’ coutnry where the elite economic class remained undespoiled and grew even wealthier.

It is sufficient that anyone can read in translation of the sources that the claim of ethnic cleansing of Jews in Morocco is false and gross distortion of the history, and the history of Morocco in this area is very starkly diffreent from those of the Mashrek. You can not of course admit error, it is known that, so you must attack the messanger.

The point I make is simple, the Jewish history in Morocco of the post-colonial period is radically different from the rest of the region and while it can not be made too rosy, it was not rosy, it is no way like that of the East and you made a mistake in comparing the Iraq with the Moroccan experience.

[Ibn_Warraq]

Er… I wasn’t aware you were an Arab or Muslim so this is false.

I know well you want to try to distort and to paint me as in your stereotype of Muslim arab paranoide anti-semite as your strawman to argue against.

Beyond that, you seem now to be claimed that because there are a few thousand Jews left that it couldn’t have been ethnic cleansing.

You’re aware that following ethnic cleansing of Armenians from Anatolia there were not just a few thousand Armenians left but there were 100,000 left and they were living in Constantinople at the heart of the Ottoman Empire and most were part of the economic elite which is why the Ottomans made a point of keeping and pandering to them.

Based on your logic I shouldn’t call it an ethnic cleansing.

Is that your view because if you want to be logically consistent it should be?

I’d be careful voicing such thought because doing so in your country is a crime.

Sorry, but the Jewish population of Morocco according to your own sources dropped from 280,000 to just a few thousand due to bigotry. Just because the government of Morocco tried to stop this from happening doesn’t deny the reality.

You have yet to explain why you quote from that source only to now insist it’s not to be trusted when it contradicts your claims

I also did not compare the Iraqi and Moroccan governments. I made an offhand remark about Iraqi and Moroccan Jews who both fled to Israel due to anti-Semitism which you’ve blown out of proportion.

[Ramira]

To make the false comparison clear here we can draw on this history (PDF) with the academic citations to proper neutral professional histories (notably taking fromMichel Abitbol histories) and compare the events

Irak

En mars 1950 le gouvernement irakien autorise l’exil des Juifs vers Israël avec déchéance de la nationalité irakienne. Des conditions strictes fixent le transfert des biens de propriété hors du pays. Le reste doit être vendu souvent à des prix imposés ne dépassant pas 10% de la valeur réelle. Moïse Rahmani avance le chiffre de deux cent millions de dollars d’époque de biens confisqués28

In March 1950 the Iraqi Government allow the exile of the Jews to Israel with deprivation of Iraqi nationality. Strict conditions set the conveyancing of property outside the country. The rest must often be sold at prices imposed not exceeding 10% of the actual value. Moïse Rahmani advanced the figure of two hundred million dollars of the time of property confiscated (28)

Egypt

L’Egypte est le pays le plus secoué par l’onde de choc de la première guerre israélo-arabe. Les Juifs ont occupé une place centrale dans le développement économique de l’Egypte de la fin du XIXème siècle et de la première moitié du XXème siècle, aussi bien dans le domaine de l’agriculture que des chemins de fers, du commerce, de la finance etc36. L’agitation qui secoue le pays à partir de 1948 fragilise fortement la communauté juive. De nombreux Juifs accusés de communisme ou sionisme sont arrêtés. Plusieurs grandes fortunes juives voient leurs bien séquestrés. Fin 1948 de nombreux attentats sont commis contre les quartiers juifs. Entre fin 1948 et 1951 entre 15’000 et 20’000 Juifs partent à destination d’Israël37. La prochaine grande vague d’immigration a lieu au sortir de la guerre de Suez menée conjointement par la France, l’Angleterre et Israël. Plusieurs centaines de Juifs sont jetés en prisons et leurs biens confisqués. Le sionisme devient hors la loi et toute personne ayant adhéré à une organisation sioniste se voit dénier la nationalité égyptienne et contrainte, par conséquent, à quitter le pays.

Entre 1956 et décembre 1960 plus de 40’000 Juifs partent à destination de la France, de la Grande-Bretagne, de l’Italie et d’Israël38. Les décrets de nationalisation des années 1961-1962 frappent durement les derniers vestiges de la communauté, qui finira par s’éteindre complètement au lendemain de la guerre israélo-arabe de 1967 et son cortège d’exactions antijuives39.

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Egypt is the most shaken by the shock of the first Arab-Israeli war. The Jews have occupied a central place in the economic development of Egypt from the end of the 19th century and the first half of the 20th century, as well in the field of agriculture and of railways, trade, finance etc(36). The agitation that shakes the country from 1948 strongly undermines the Jewish community. Many Jews accused of Communism or Zionism are arrested. Several large Jewish fortunes see their hostages well. End of 1948 many attacks are committed against Jewish neighbourhoods. Between late 1948 and 1951 between 15,000 and 20,000 Jews depart to Israel (37). The next great wave of immigration took place after the war of Suez carried out jointly by France, England and Israel. Hundreds of Jews were thrown into prisons and their property confiscated. Zionism became outlawed and any person having joined a Zionist Organization was denied nationality Egyptian and compelled, therefore, to leave the country. Between 1956 to December 1960 more than 40’000 Jews will depart to the France, Britain, the Italy and Israel (38). The decrees of the years 1961-1962 nationalization hit the last vestiges of the community, which will eventually shut down completely in the aftermath of the war 1967 Arab-Israeli and his retinue of abuses antijewish (39).

As we compare to Morocco

Au sortir de la Seconde Guerre Mondiale, le Maghreb subit une terrible crise économique. Les événements au Proche-Orient affectent aussi les relations arabo-juives. De 1945 à 1955 de nombreuses émeutes à caractère antijuif et anticolonial frappent les deux protectorats (Maroc et Tunisie). Elle sont toutefois de moindre ampleur que celle qui se sont produites au Mashreq à la même période. Les incidents les plus sérieux se sont déroulés à Oujda et Djerada les 7 et 8 juin 1948 puis à Sidi Kacem, le 20 août 195440.

Lors de l’indépendance du Maroc en 1956, le souverain Mohammed V accorde la pleine égalité aux Juifs et nomme Léon Benzaquen ministre des Postes. D’autres Juifs occuperont de hautes fonctions dans l’administration et les tribunaux41. Il est bon de rappeler que ce même Mohammed V avait refusé de promulguer au Maroc, sous protectorat français depuis 1912, les dispositions racistes édictées dès octobre 1940 par le régime de Vichy. Selon Michel Abitbol, à certains égards, la condition des Juifs du Maroc n’a jamais
été aussi florissante que depuis l’Indépendance 42. Toutefois, la politique d’arabisation du Maroc ainsi que divers événements (adhésion à la Ligue arabe, renforcement des liens avec le FLN algérien, arrêt des liaisons postales avec Israël etc.) inquiètent la communauté juive quant à son avenir. De 1949 à l’Indépendance du Maroc, l’Agence juive organise le départ d’environ 110’000 Juifs vers Israël. Dès l’indépendance, l’immigration juive est interdite. Le Mossad organise un réseau appelé Misguéret chargé du transfert clandestin des Juifs en Israël (début 1957 à novembre 1961)44.
Pendant cette période, environ 29’000 Juifs quittent le Maroc45.

Fin 1961 l’immigration est autorisée. De laborieuses négociations sont entamées entre le Mossad et Hassan II (fils et successeur de Mohammed V décédé en 1961) qui débouche sur l’opération Yakhin ; entre 1961 et 1964 près de 80’000 Juifs quittent le pays 46. Le mouvement se poursuivra est connaîtra une ampleur exceptionnelle au sortir de la guerre des Six Jours et son cortège de tracasseries et de manifestations antijuives. 45’000 Juifs quitteront le Maroc entre 1965 et 197147.

At the end of the second world war, the Maghreb undergoes a terrible economic crisis. The events in the Middle East also affect arabo-jewish relations. From 1945 to 1955 of many character anti-Jewish and anti-colonial riots hit the two protectorates (Morocco and Tunisia). They are however of lesser magnitude than that which occurred in the Mashreq in the same period. The most serious incidents occurred in Oujda and Don on 7 and 8 June 1948 and Sidi Kacem, August 20 1954(40). When the independence of Morocco in 1956, Mohammed V sovereign granted full equality to the Jews and appoints Léon Benzaquen postmaster. Other Jews will occupy high positions in the administration and the courts(41).

It is worth remembering that this same Mohammed V refused to promulgate the Morocco under french protectorate since 1912 the racist provisions enacted in October 1940 by the Vichy regime. According to Michel Abitbol, in some respects, the condition of the Jews of the Morocco was never also flourishing since independence (42). However, the policy of Arabization of the Morocco as well as various events (adherence to the Arab League, strengthening ties with the Algerian FLN, judgment of postal links with Israel etc.) concerned the Jewish community about its future.

From 1949 until the independence of Morocco, the Jewish Agency organizes the departure of about 110’000 Jews to Israel. Since independence, the Jewish immigration is prohibited. The Mossad organized a network called Misgueret charge of the clandestine transfer of Jews in Israel (early 1957 to November 1961) 44. During this period, 29’000 Jews leave the asharsalam. In late 1961 immigration is authorized. Laborious negotiations have begun between the Mossad and Hassan II (son and successor of Mohammed V died in 1961) which leads to the Yakhin operation; between 1961 and 1964 nearly 80,000 Jews leave the country (46).

The movement will continue is will experience an exceptional magnitude after the Six-day war and its procession of harassment and anti-Jewish manifestations. 45’000 Jews leave Morocco between 1965 and 1971(47).

It is clear in this serious history comparison that

It is also clear that all things I have posted have fully supported my point that there is no legitimate place to state ethnic cleansing occurred in Morocco as the serious Jewish and Israeli historical sources are clear about. You of course have no capacity to admit error or step away from know-all positions made from limited knowledge much exagerated (as your snide remarks about Mossad show yet).

[Ramira]

It is clarify that I have made the translations myself.

[Urbanredneck]

Sometimes I have to wonder why Jews want to live in Isreal at all?

Jews live in many areas of the world and often do just fine there. Now yes, technically the “homeland” for the Jews is Palestine but that was over 2,000 years ago and who says Jews cannot live out their cultural and religious beliefs from say China, France, Argentina, Mexico, Hawaii, Antarctica, or Brooklyn?

[Malthus]

@Urbanredneck

Sometimes I have to wonder why Jews want to live in Isreal at all?

Jews live in many areas of the world and often do just fine there. Now yes, technically the “homeland” for the Jews is Palestine but that was over 2,000 years ago and who says Jews cannot live out their cultural and religious beliefs from say China, France, Argentina, Mexico, Hawaii, Antarctica, or Brooklyn?

What makes you think there aren’t Jews living in Brooklyn?

As for the rest - Jews live in Israel now for much the same reason anyone lives anywhere - because that’s where they live.

If you are asking “why did they, or their ancestors, move there”, the reason is that historically, it was a good idea or they didn’t have much choice - most Jews moved to Israel from Europe or the Middle East, having either been massacred, turfed out, or threatened with being massacred or turfed out. Moving to a country where they were (a) welcome and (b) had an army willing to protect them from being massacred or turfed out again, seemed to be a good idea. Many of them could not move to wherever they wanted, either because other countries would not take them, or because they had no money.

It is interesting that no-one ever asks why Arabs do not simply move to Antarctica.

[Trinopus]

@Malthus

. . . It is interesting that no-one ever asks why Arabs do not simply move to Antarctica.

Or why Palestinians don’t move to Jordan, Syria, or Egypt.

[Alessan]

@Urbanredneck

Sometimes I have to wonder why Jews want to live in Isreal at all?

Jews live in many areas of the world and often do just fine there. Now yes, technically the “homeland” for the Jews is Palestine but that was over 2,000 years ago and who says Jews cannot live out their cultural and religious beliefs from say China, France, Argentina, Mexico, Hawaii, Antarctica, or Brooklyn?

I like it here - the food’s great, the weather’s nice and the girls are beautiful. Plus, all my friends are here.

[Shinna_Minna_Ma]

@Zsofia

We used to (maybe still do?) have a poster here who is a settler - I believe he or she did an “Ask the…” thread awhile ago.

That would be me, and I’m still here in the Shomron, and still here as a poster.