Hey!
Them PETA terrorists get models to sit naked in cages in the middle of downtown.
If you don’t see that as a communist assault on productivity, I invite you to walk through the offices next time the girls are spreading their legs in the cages, and see how many guys are at the window and how many at the desk,
huh?
I read the link and it specifically states that groups like the ALF and ELF have not caused any deaths as a result of their actions. Their activities mainly result in property damage. As a past member of PETA, and still a supporter of their cause, I know that this group does not condone violence towards any living creature–human or any other species.
IMO the reason the FBI targets groups like Greenpeace and PETA is because they are trying to elicit names of members that might be connected with the ALF or ELF. Also, they are likely trying to find a financial link between the legitimate groups and those they have targeted as illegal or terrorist groups. I know that I had been interested (in my younger years) in becoming involved with the ALF. No such luck. It is very difficult to get into due to infiltrators. I would not be surprised if the FBI had a dossier on me. Might be interesting to check out.
Or perhaps the Feds will see this thread, and a SWAT team will suddenly appear at my door, bust in and hold me without representation under the Patriot Act. But I won’t talk…all they will get is my name and social security number. 
Yet.
Arson is a very serious crime. It can easily result in the death of an innocent person.
I know a number of people who used to own and run mink ranches. They got out of the business because the market for pelts was so poor. They were family farmers, not some faceless corporation. They invested a great deal of time and money in building and operating their mink ranches. The idea that some “animal rights” terrorists thinks it’s justifiable to trash a mink ranch and to release the animals is obscene. Even if they don’t care about destroying someone else’s property, they aren’t doing any favors for the mink and the local wildlife. Real life isn’t some Disney movie where the freed animals run off into the sunset, living happily ever after.
So, are you unhappy because your friends’ business went under “for lack of interest” or the fact that the animal rights’ movement educated the public about the fact that these animals’ pelts were ripped from their bodies after living a horrible, caged life so that some woman or man could wear the pelt, not for warmth’s sake, but to show off their elitist disposable income? It appears your friends got out of the business because the market was poor, not because their ranch was trashed. I don’t know, maybe I am misunderstanding your message. :dubious:
Arson is terrorism, even if no one dies. And the whole point of keeping an eye on these dudes is that we don’t want " until the Earth Liberation Front starts killing people" to start in the first place. Even if they try to be careful and set their fires only when the building isn’t occupied, it’s only a matter of time before a guard, janitor, late worker, or homeless person dies in one of these fires. Or a fire-fighter when fighting one. Let’s not try and pretend that arson isn’t a serious AND dangerous crime. It goes far beyond “monkeywrenching”.
I am gald the FBI is watching domestic terror groups. You know the Militias were seen as “mostly harmless” for years, too.
Now, however- so far one of the most dangerous domestic terror “front” are the anti-abortionists. Are we “keeping an eye” on the, too? There’s another type of group where dudes thought they’d “never kill anyone”, but they certainly have.
I’m unhappy because the so-called animal rights movement has engaged in a long series of crimes directed against mink ranchers. It’s personal. I know people who raise animals for fur, food, vaccines, etc. They do not deserve to be the target of criminal acts and harassment by the lunatic fringe. When they were raising mink, I saw how the animals were treated, and I helped out on occasion. They did not live a “horrible, caged life”. If you don’t like fur coats, don’t buy one, and please refrain from using violence against those who disagree.
If you under the mistaken impression that animal rights groups limit themselves to crimes against property, read http://www.naiaonline.org/body/articles/archives/arterror.htm for a chronology of their criminal activities.
Digression: It’s not just Disney that does it, either. In Gorky Park, both the book and the film,
at the end Arkady Renko releases the villain’s Russian sables (the McGuffin of the story) into the woods of New York – where they are not a native species. They might conceivably fill the ecological niche left by the over-hunted pine martens, mentioned earlier in the book. But these poor animals were born and raised in cages – how can they survive in the wild?
So where did the minks live? On free range mink farms? Doubtful. Living happily ever after…hmm…lemme see…raised in captivity in a cage for the sole purpose of dying so someone else can use my fur or running free (yes, with the possibility that I may be eaten) to exist as I was intended. That would be to propogate, raise my young, eat and be eaten (by the natural predator). If these animals are released in areas not native, who brought them to the areas to begin with? The farmers, not the animals themselves or activists.
The mink farms are going out of business because it is no longer popular to exploit another species for fashion alone. I do not buy fur, and have no problem educating those that do wear it.
The purpose of this thread was to determine why legitimate groups were targeted by the FBI. I believe that I have already answered with my opinion as to why. Your cite does not contain any death caused by the ALF/ELF. Be that as it may, I will again state that I do not condone or support any effort that would cause the death of any living thing.
How do you feel about leather? (I am not going to wear plastic shoes!)
No reason to get into an animal rights debate. I feel animals should have virtually no rights, they are chattel that are to be used for the advancement of mankind.
But you feel otherwise. All I think us on the “other side” are asking is that you don’t use violence or commit crimes against people to express your views. Animal rights activists need to work within the confines of the law. And if they want to engage in civil disobedience it should be specifically non-violent and they shouldn’t hide from the authorities, they should to it in public view and accept arrest and prosecution for their crimes.
That’s one of the best lessons MLK ever taught us.
Run free, little minks! Run, run!
http://www.animalrights.net/archives/year/1998/000037.html
Minks are really efficient predators. They do bad stuff to the environment, in large numbers. If there’s an endangered bird species in the area, it’s kacked. Small dog deaths, you name it. Letting 'em free is really really bad.
We are in complete agreement Martin Hyde with regard to not committing or threatening terroristic violence towards another living thing, civil obedience and MLK.
Of course, MLK learned his tactics from Gandhi. They were fitted to a state like the British Empire, where the Powers that Be were fundamentally decent people or, at least, earnestly wished to be perceived as decent. As George Orwell pointed out, Gandhian tactics would not work at all in a country where opponents of the regime disappear in the middle of the night and are never heard from again.
America, of course, is not that kind of country.
Yet.
I just wonder why the FBI can’t get warrants for these investigations if they’re so necessary? Frex, mosques. I’m sure that, post 9-11, they could have gotten warrants to generally investigate mosques, because the post 911 investigations quickly revealed that some mosques were harboring Al-Qaeda cells, and more were promoting Islamic charities that funnelled money to Al-Qaeda (often unknowingly, I’m sure). I’m also sure there were a lot of mosques that had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda, but I certainly see a legitimate need for the FBI to sort out the Al-Qaeda-supporting mosques and charities from those that do not support Al-Qaeda, and I see no reason why they couldn’t get a warrant to do this stuff. And if they had sound reason for supposing that PETA, et. al. were engaged in violent terrorist activities, they should be able to get warrants to investigate, right? So why didn’t they?
I guess the dead give away is the Catholic Workers’ group. I disagree with most of what the Catholic leadership advocates, think they’re in general a bad influence on America, but there’s nothing SECRETIVE about them. They’re right out there advocating censorship, no birth control and such right in public. No judge would give the FBI a warrant for them unless there were some sound evidence somewhere. Sounds to me that the FBI is a dog that has slipped its leash under the incredibly stupid management of the Bush Administration and must be reigned in.
As Martin has pointed out, search warrants are not legally necessary for all forms of investigation or surveillance.
Not, that would be the Knights of Columbus or the Catholic Legion of Decency or some such shit. The Catholic Worker movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Worker_movement) has a different agenda – it is historically commited to “distributism,” a doctrine formulated by Catholic intellectuals in the early 20th Century as an alternative to both capitalism and socialism. See this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=344179; and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism. Since they do grouse about “unequal distribution of wealth” (and also espouse charity and peace and nonviolence and similar subversive ideas), I guess they might appear to have a “semi-communistic ideology” in the eyes of any FBI agent who is a holdover from the Hoover years.
Sure, the Catholic Church has a long history of support for the many poor people created by their opposition to birth control, and such things as “liberation theology” that the current benighted asshats who run the Vatican hate so much. But once again, not much history of secrecy behind it. The closest thing I can think of to a secretive org associated with Catholicism is Opus Dei, and even then, they’re not all that secretive.
Well, I don’t know anything about Greenpeace or the Catholic Workers but PITA does have some history of supporting nutjobs such as the Earth Liberation Front (cite)
Which brings us to this guy. He is a former ELF member and is calling for a war on America ,which would consist of things like:
and
PITA made a donation to ELF and came up with 5 different reasons for the donation. The guy calling for rioting and violence in the US was the public speaker for ELF. ELF also destroyed a bunch of property, destroyed a bunch of SUVs and mailed holiday cards containing razors to a 8 people*.
It seems pretty clear why the FBI would be interested in this guy and ELF. It also seems that this guy, in his position at ELF, had a link to PITA in the past. So I can understand why the FBI would look at PITA.
Slee
*The articles I found did not say what the razors were for except that the letters contained ‘special xmas message’ to people they think are engaged in animal abuse. Probably a threat but I can’t find the text of the letters anywhere.
And I suspect a judge would have issued a warrant to spy on the guy and maybe ELF too. Maybe not PITA. The guy might also be a former Boy Scout, but that doesn’t mean theyr’e subversive.