Why wouldn't Mythbusters be able to do a show on RFID?

[XT]

A friend sent me this link on YouTube where Adam is talking about the fact that Discovery and the Mythbusters got stomped on for doing a show on RFID…I guess they can’t even air it if I’m hearing this correctly. My question is…why? I’m guessing it has something to do with what Adam says…hackability of embedded RFID chips, perhaps in embedded systems or future products like credit cards or such…but I don’t get why so many companies would have come out of the wood work to apparently stomp on them. Of course, to my friend this is proof of a government or corporate conspiracy…but I’m curious if anyone knows any of the details as to why.

-XT

[lazybratsche]

Well, I’m sure there are a lot of companies out there that don’t want the weaknesses of RFID to be waved around in public. At the very least, they’d refuse to cooperate, which would make any show harder to make. It seems that a lot of what’s done on Mythbusters is done with the blessing and assistance of entities related to the myth. If the companies were really angry, they could pull advertising or even resort to legal harassment.

Basically, I don’t think the producers or the network wants to start any real battles, even if they could “win”.

ETA:
As to the why, if I was a company that was planning to roll out RFID for some consumer purpose like credit cards, I’d want to make sure that the first widespread knowledge of the technology wasn’t negative. That could torpedo an application before it even starts.

[anson2995]

Savage later retracted those comments, acknowledging that he had most of his facts wrong. They did eventually air the show on RFID.

Mythbusters host Adam Savage is retracting comments he made at a hackers conference where he said an episode exposing security flaws in credit card RFID technology was squelched by credit card company lawyers. In a new statement Adam says, " If I went into the detail of exactly why this story didn’t get filmed, it’s so bizarre and convoluted that no one would believe me, but suffice to say…the decision not to continue on with the RFID story was made by our production company, Beyond Productions, and had nothing to do with Discovery, or their ad sales department."

The blogosphere is full of references to Savage’s initial rant, but nobody seemed to have seen his follow-up comments were he admitted he hadn’t been in the room for any of the conversations.

[Magiver]

Myth Buster busted in 2 responses. E X C E L L E N T.

[ftg]

@anson2995

They did eventually air the show on RFID.

They did? I’ve seen all the episodes and never saw it. As an RFID critic, I would have definitely noted it if it aired.

[fluiddruid]

@ftg

They did? I’ve seen all the episodes and never saw it. As an RFID critic, I would have definitely noted it if it aired.

I checked Youtube and there’s nothing to reference an episode being made - the only relevant clip is this one of the original claim of credit card company lawyers causing the problem.

[brazil84]

@anson2995

Savage later retracted those comments, acknowledging that he had most of his facts wrong. They did eventually air the show on RFID.

And did that show reveal security issues with credit cards? Or did it explore other aspects of RFID?

My instinct is that Savage’s initial comments were more candid.

[anson2995]

@ftg

They did? I’ve seen all the episodes and never saw it. As an RFID critic, I would have definitely noted it if it aired.

Guess you missed it. From the Discovery Channel website’s episode guide:

Myth Revolution (Sept. 5)
In RFID Tags, Kari, Tory and Grant are putting the latest RFID conspiracy theorists to the test.

[anson2995]

@brazil84

My instinct is that Savage’s initial comments were more candid.

Well, if by candid you mean recounting conversations that he later acknowledged he hadn’t actually been a part of.

Savage didn’t actually participate in the RFID segment. Grant Imahara was producing that segment, and he disputed Savage’s comments, too.

[ftg]

Look again. That’s from 2007 and it’s the episode where they put an RFID tag in an MRI. Nothing to do with the later issue.

[anson2995]

@ftg

Look again. That’s from 2007 and it’s the episode where they put an RFID tag in an MRI. Nothing to do with the later issue.

Same issue. Savage made the comments in July 2008 about a show from the previous season. That was the one, and it had aired the previous September. The conversations between the show’s staff and RFID guru’s at Texas Instruments, Mastercard and Visa took place in June 2007.

It is correct that the episode in question did not contain anything about security flaws in RFID. But what’s at issue here is whether the show was pressured not to explore that issue, which Savage first claimed in his appearance.

Savage later acknowledged that he had some of the facts wrong and hadn’t actually been part of any of the conversations he described. He didn’t even know which of his own co-hosts was working on the segment.

[brazil84]

@anson2995

Well, if by candid you mean recounting conversations that he later acknowledged he hadn’t actually been a part of.

No, by “candid” I mean making statements before his bosses had a chance to really crack the whip.

Savage didn’t actually participate in the RFID segment. Grant Imahara was producing that segment, and he disputed Savage’s comments, too.

Was the RFID segment about credit cards? Or MRI and RFID?

[ftg]

@anson2995

Same issue.

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. By a very large margin.

[anson2995]

@ftg

I think we’ll have to agree to disagree. By a very large margin.

Well, I’m not sure what you’re disagreeing with, frankly. That Savage’s comments were about the episode that aired in September 2007?

[ftg]

In July 2008, Adam Savage says that a planned segment of Mythbusters on the security and reliability of RFID tags was killed. (A statement later he later backtracked on.) This was nearly a year after the RFID tags in MRIs episode aired. Cearly he wasn’t talking about that episode for three obvious reasons (date, topic and airing).

So when did the actual controversial RFID tag episode air then?

[minor7flat5]

This is why I don’t trust their myth-busting of myths that have legal implications.

For example, they did a show on seeing if there were any devices that could defeat a red light camera. Can I trust that they would have shown a device if they found it to work?
Same thing with beating the breathalyzer - if they had found a reasonable way to affect the readings, would they have been told not to show it?

Their show is far from unbiased - I believe that showmanship and legal pressure affect many of their choices and outcomes.

[ivn1188]

@minor7flat5

For example, they did a show on seeing if there were any devices that could defeat a red light camera. Can I trust that they would have shown a device if they found it to work?
Same thing with beating the breathalyzer - if they had found a reasonable way to affect the readings, would they have been told not to show it?

It’s perfectly legal to demonstrate the shortcomings of these sorts of systems. You can teach someone how to pick a lock, break codes, rig voting machines, etc etc.

The real problem is there are a lot of people who believe that keeping security flaws secret is a good idea. These groups are also prone to using legal tactics to try and protect the perceived security advantage of secrecy.

But aside from a few caveats, such as the DMCA and a few other circumstances, the only way to pressure someone not to reveal these sorts of flaws is threatening to drop advertising or refusing to cooperate – they have no legal leg to stand on.

[anson2995]

@ftg

In July 2008, Adam Savage says that a planned segment of Mythbusters on the security and reliability of RFID tags was killed. (A statement later he later backtracked on.) This was nearly a year after the RFID tags in MRIs episode aired. Cearly he wasn’t talking about that episode for three obvious reasons (date, topic and airing).

So when did the actual controversial RFID tag episode air then?

The “controversial” episode didn’t air, because as Savage said in both his original comments and his retraction, they (Mythbusters) changed the focus of their RFID segment. If your point is that the September 2007 episode didn’t have anything to do with security flaws in RFID, then we’re in complete agreement.

I’m not sure why the timeline is confusing, though. The story Savage is telling is in the video is in the past tense. He told it in July 2008, the summer after the story aired . He was making reference to something that had happened in the season they had just finished filming. I guess what you are disputing is whether the RFID segment that actually aired is in any way related to the “unaired” RFID segment that Savage references. Clearly, the conversation between MythBusters producers and the credit card companies that is at the heart of Savage’s comments took place in June 2007. And clearly, they ran an RFID segment in September 2007. Are you arguing that these two events are completely unrelated?

The OP’s question was whether or not their was a corporate or government conspiracy to keep the show from discussing RFID technology in light of Savage’s YouTube video. I think we all agree that 1) Savage later said he got the story wrong (whether we believe him or not) and 2) MythBusters did air a show on RFID, although it was on a complete different aspect of the technology than Savage claims they wanted to explore. I’d wager that we also agree on one more thing: it wouldn’t make much sense to censor MythBusters from bringing up the issue since every one else has covered it.

Beyond that, I’m not sure what we’re disagreeing about.

[lazybratsche]

@anson2995

I’d wager that we also agree on one more thing: it wouldn’t make much sense to censor MythBusters from bringing up the issue since every one else has covered it.

I realize I’m butting in, but I don’t agree here. The geek community has a good understanding of the security risks and flaws of RFID, even if we argue about how seriously to take these risks. However, there’s been precious little mainstream coverage of the issue. Of the links you provided, only the MBTA fare card got much attention in the outside world, and there it was mostly presented in a way that didn’t mention risks to individuals. The worst case scenario I picked up from the local newspapers was that maybe some people could ride the T for free, or even produce a few bootleg fare cards. In other words, it was presented as a minor threat to revenues for the MBTA, and nothing that could get the average person in trouble.

[Tangent]

@minor7flat5

This is why I don’t trust their myth-busting of myths that have legal implications.

For example, they did a show on seeing if there were any devices that could defeat a red light camera. Can I trust that they would have shown a device if they found it to work?
Same thing with beating the breathalyzer - if they had found a reasonable way to affect the readings, would they have been told not to show it?

Their show is far from unbiased - I believe that showmanship and legal pressure affect many of their choices and outcomes.

They did a show about beating some security devices like fingerprint scanners and infrared cameras. They were pretty candid about which methods were successful and which weren’t. IIRC, Jamie beat a fingerprint scanner with a photocopy that he enlarged, “corrected” by using a magic marker to complete some gaps left by the photocopying process, and then reduced to regular size again. The infrared camera was beat by hiding behind a pane of glass.