Well, I asked Visa, and here’s their official response:
I’m quite disappointed that both Citi and Bank of America got this wrong. Oh well… I now have two printouts in my wallet backing me up. Next time they ask for my ID, I’ll say “no thanks”, and if they start quoting store policy at me, it’ll be ON.
I can’t imagine anyone getting a fraudulent ID. As you mentioned, unless they had a drivers license printer in their house, chances are the card would be on the hot list long before they were able to produce an ID.
In fact, you don’t even have to lose your card. My wife had her number stolen at a motel near Purdue - almost certainly by the desk clerk and an accomplice, and possibly by the manager. The motel changed hands shortly thereafter, and the new manager discovered that the credit card records had gotten mysteriously destroyed. Ours wasn’t the only one stolen. The card was used at the same motel, for take out at a local restaurant, and for some mail order things. Since this was such a clear case of fraud, we didn’t pay anything.
There was a Dilbert some time back, when people were concerned about using their cards on the Web, comparing the chance of a number being stolen on line with it being stolen by some lowlife clerk at a store. This was a perfect example that Adams was right.
In my experience, these are found in the states mainly in grocery stores and convenience stores. Sometimes other stores have them, but they’re not very common outside those two categories of stores.
Trader Joe’s (specialty grocery store) has an interesting system. Instead of entering your PIN, you sign on the LED display with a light pen. Your signature is then printed on a form that the cashier puts in the cash drawer. The only thing is, the cashier never touches your card to check signatures. I suppose they could ask forthe card, but I’ve never seen them do so. So they’ve basically institutionalized the not checking the signature.
I have a question I’ve been wondering about. I currently work in a retail store and do checkl signatures. That is, when I can. Easily half (and probably more) of the signatures on the cards I see are so worn that I can’t tell if the signature matches or not. What am I supposed to do in this situation?
You should inform the customer that the signature strip on the CC is too worn to read and request ID to compare the signature on the ID and the sales slip.
While I sympathize 100% with you, honetly, I can imagine how the scenario will play out IRL:
Clerk: “Can I see some ID?”
You: “No.”
Clerk: “I have to see it.”
You: (Tell them for 5 minutes, pulling out paper from your wallet, how they are in violation of the merchant agreement)
Clerk: (eyes widen with terror like a spooked horse, as he backs away and calls the manager)
Manager: “Sir, please leave the store and don’t come back, or I’ll call the police and tell them you’re being ‘difficult’. Thanks.”
Later that night…
You: “Hello, Visa? Boy, do I have someone to report to you…”
Time passes…
Visa Employee 1: “Hey, where do we put the complaints about merchants asking for ID?”
Visa Employee 2: “Usually in the shredder. Sometime just in the recycle bin. Me, I’m stacking them in piles to make a fort.”
Visa Employee 1: “Cool! Can I come stay in your fort?”
Visa Employee 2: “No! Build your own fort!”
I see it going more like this…
Clerk: “Can I see some ID?”
Me: “No, but the card is signed. You can check my signature.”
Clerk: “I have to see it.”
Me: “OK, can I speak to your manager, please?”
Manager: “Sir, our policy is to check ID with all credit card purchases.”
Me: “Are you aware that your policy violates the Visa merchant agreement?”
Manager: “No.”
Me: “All right. Well, I can show you a page from their merchant guide, saying that it does, or you can call them up and they can tell you. I’m sorry to get in the way here, but I’ve gotten tired of stores asking for my ID, and unfortunately you’re the first one to do it since I’ve found the official answer about this policy.”
Manager: “Every other store does it.”
Me: “And I’ll go through this with them if I have to - they’re wrong too. They can’t require ID for paying with a card just like they can’t charge extra for paying with a card. Now please, I’m only asking you to let me use my card according to the rules everyone is supposed to follow. If you won’t let me do that, I’ll have to complain to my bank and your credit card processor, and I don’t think they’ll appreciate you making up your own restrictions on credit card customers.”
Manager: “Let me see that page again.”
Nah, I think they take complaints a little more seriously when it comes to merchants putting up roadblocks for customers who want to pay with their cards, since the whole point of Visa is to make it easy to spend money. Requiring extra ID gets in the way of that, just like charging an extra fee for credit customers or setting a minimum purchase requirement.
An update: The Carolina Hurricanes gift shop and the U.S. Postal Service both ask for ID now.
Bear in mind that even this won’t help you against a card-cloning operation, who can simply provide the photo IDs, sigs etc to match. In the pre chip&pin days, the recommended procedure also involved checking the card number that printed out on the till receipt against the card number embossed on the plastic. Of course, the security concerns around printing the cardnumber have now made this impossible.
Chip&PIN is the safest system by far at the moment. Signature-based processes are based more on hope than on a realistic possibility of stopping a determined fraudster.
While we’re tapping on this thread’s disturbingly empty coffin with our spades…
The whole point of Visa is to collect payments. You aren’t Visa’s customer, the merchant is. If Visa can convenience merchants by turning a blind eye to their rules, to the detriment of the merchants’ customers, and still make bucketfuls of moolah, they’ll do it in a hearbeat.
This is false. I know from experience that Visa and MasterCard take complaints of merchant agreement violations seriously.
This is also wrong. Visa/MasterCard hire third party acquirers who service the merchants. This relationship is outsourced.
It is against the merchant agreement to request ID because this is a form of plastic suppression. If you don’t produce ID, the cashier will tell you he cannot accept your card. But perhaps you have cash instead? For a customer who is committed to making the sale, he will put away his card and pay in cash. No discount fees to the credit card companies, wider margin for the merchants.
I often find myself- politely- explaining to American tourists that “SEE ID” does NOT count as a valid signature.
Let’s say someone- a caucasian male, in this example- presents a Visa card to me at work that has “SEE ID” written in place of the signature. Customer shows me a driver’s licence from California or Texas or somewhere like that. All that tells me is that the person has the same name on their driver’s licence as they do on their credit card.
It doesn’t tell me that the person presenting the credit card is actually the person to whom the card was issued.
Then again, neither does a signature- but everyone can sign their name, and a surprising number of people don’t carry driver’s licences on them.
Also, if the signatures don’t match and we accept the card, if the cardholder disputes the payment, we (as a business) are liable for the cost. “SEE ID” is NOT a signature, so we couldn’t turn around and say “But they had a driver’s licence with the same name on it!” as “proof” they made the purchase.
However, if someone has taken the time to practice the signature on a stolen card to the point where it’s indistinguishable from the POV of a salesperson or other “reasonable person”, then the Credit Card Company (or the original cardholder, depending on the circumstances) has to eat the cost- not the business.
QED was right that loads of fraud is caused by store staff not checking things properly. Every case of CC fraud in my store I’ve seen the signatures at a later date and they clearly didn’t match. That’s the whole idea of chip and pin isn’t it? Cutting the store staff from the equation?
I work as a store manager in the UK in one of the most fraud ridden industries we have, mobile phones. We don’t ask for ID for Credit Card purchases but asking for ID is part of selling our products. We need a proof of address and a proof of Signature.
The signature one is 99% of the time a credit/debit card. If someone had written “Check ID” on it, it’s gonna be useless for them to make this purchase. Most disapointing for staff and customer when we turn them away because of lack of ID.
Just remember, if you deliberatly don’t carry ID so people can’t make purchases when they steal your wallet, that could stop you too.
Side note, A shop called Burton’s (major retail chain of clothing) will issue a store card on the spot with nothing more than proof of ID. Credit / Debit card would suffice for them.