This thread has gotten me thinking. I’m changing my burial preference from cremation to I-don’t-care. My wife will probably cremate me, but I don’t want her to put a moment’s consideration into my “wishes” after my capacity to wish has ended.
I’d tell my wife to do whatever was cheapest. If that involves tucking me in a freezer until Tuesday’s trash pick-up, so be it.
It is impossible to disgrace Jack. Jack is dead.*
Do you feel that all promises must be kept, no matter how circumstances change?
If I break a promise, there had better be something extraordinarily dire going on. And someone wanting a different burial arrangement isn’t in the running.
When my husband told me what he wanted to have happen to his body after his death, that was the time for me to say I wasn’t going to do it. And before his death was the time for Grace to make her wishes known to him and see if he was willing to bend.
I am making a note to never eat at your house.
It’s possible to make Jack look like a damned fool idiot who shouldn’t have trusted his wife.
Were I the wife, I would do what MIL requested, if there were resources handily available.
There is a debt to the mother in law that everybody seems to have forgotten.
Also, I think that if the MIL is against organ donation, her wishes ought to be honored far above the needs of strangers. Her comfort, to me, would be ten times more important than that of strangers. Where were they when Mom was watching the kids?
Also, a final kick in the testicles isn’t one tenth as violent as the 1200 degree flames that the boy would be experiencing, were he cremated.
Let mom enjoy the remainder of her life. She gave a LOT for the couple while he was alive. The sadness one feels, esp. at the time of death of their child, needs all of the mitigation available.
Best wishes,
hh
There could be a compromise of handing over most of the cremains to be placed in the family crypt and keep a portion in order to perform the symbolic scattering, but that would depend on Grace being willing to accept something other than whole-body entombment. That may have to do with her specific Faith.
Now, the detail that Jack’s preference for cremation and scattering includes making a point out of active denial of any hallowed treatment for his remains… well, it leaves me saying, “man, was that really necessary?”.
(My own preference: harvest as much as you can from me. Then hand over what’s left to my NOK, they can dispose of creatively if they wish to undergo the expense)
Um … they don’t know Hannah & Jack. I don’t know how you can hold that against them.
If I had any reason to believe [del]lives could be saved[/del] deaths could be postponed and human suffering alleviated by donating my spouse’s organs, I’d donate them no matter my in-law’s objections.
Sure, Jack’s dead, his mom is alive - but Hannah is alive, too. Hannah would have to decide if she could live out her life - and probably for more years than Grace had left - knowing that she had broken her promise to her husband, the father of their children. I’ve often said that people live on after death in the hearts and minds of those who loved them, and she would have to consider whether she could bear that.
In the long run, we are all dead. That doesn’t mean nothing matters.
Again, the betrayal and disgrace are not of the corpse, they are of the real and living person with whom the relationship existed and to whom the promise was made. The fact that Jack is dead now doesn’t make his life, his humanity, his relationships, any less real or less worthy. If those things deserved respect before, they deserve respect after.
No doubt impossible situations can be invented.
But as a general, real-world rule, yes, promises must be kept.
Untrue. In the long run, we are all doomed to die, which is a different thing.
I am not a nihilist. I am not claiming that the inevitability of death means that nothing matters. I am saying the wishes of the dead are less important than teh suffering of the living. I’m in favor of reducing suffering in general. The dead, being dead, cannot be caused to suffer more.
I don’t need to postulate an impossible situation. Imagine, for instance, a woman who, around the age of 18 or so, comes out as a lesbian to her parents. Being conservative Christians, they believe homosexuality to be immoral and/or sick, and prevail upon her to promise to never be sexual with another woman–to either marry a man or remain remain forever chaste; in short, to live her life as if she were straight or to remain a virgin. Believing that only thus can she retain their love, she agrees.
Do you think that is an impossible situation? Do you think that promise should always be honored? Because I don’t. Some promises are unwise, and even Aslan would say, “Oh, hell no, baby girl. Fuck that shit. You were foolish to make that promise, and your parents were wrong to pressure you into it.”
I’m not comparing that situation to the hypothetical, by the way, as Jack clearly had the right to make the arrangements he did.
In other news, the High King of All Kings in Narnia is
My initial thought is ‘he’s dead, meh’, but th MIL had ages to discuss this with Jack and vice versae.
I guess this mostly comes down to what Jacks reasons were for not going with the MIL’s wishes. I find it hard to believe he made the decision lightly given he is an atheist and knows ‘dead is dead’. I guess if the MIL had been trying really hard to respect his wishes and had then ‘cracked’ Id go with her wishes, depending on Jacks reasons.
But Id also be wondering a bit about the timing and about the MIL prioritising her beliefs over Jacks. I guess given she adores her, some of that might not be a major consideration.
But ‘I gave my word’ isnt enough in itself - thats simply personal pride vs someones very real distress.
Otara
I just thought of another option. Inter Jack in the family crypt (either whole or in cremain form), wait until Grace dies, then have Jack removed (& cremated if necessary) and scatter the ashes over the river. That way everybody’s happy and both Jack & Grace die thinking their wishes are being furfilled.
Is it? At some point in the future, all people now living will be dead. By the same token, at some points in the past, all people now dead were living.
It seems to me that if you’re not a nihilist, you must agree that the temporality of all these people is not a factor in their reality and worth. I don’t see a reason why keeping a promise made to a living person who is now dead should be morally any different from keeping a promise made to a living person who will be dead.
Okay, so we disagree. I’m in favor of reducing suffering too, but not before all else–not at any cost.
If Grace is made unhappy by Jack’s wife honoring his wishes and the promise, that’s too bad, but it’s really her own problem. Since Jack is not available to release Hannah from the promise, Hannah’s only options are to keep it, or to break it and thereby cast aside respect for him, and the trust he had in her.
Frankly, Grace getting upset is small potatoes to that.
Of course not-making a bad promise in the first place is best. They’re wrong, but she’s wrong also to make a promise for bad reasons. If she does not intend to keep it, she is also deceiving them.
But people make mistakes. Having made that mistake, the best she can do would be to tell the parents (before they die) that she cannot keep it. That at least removes the deception.
That’s what I came in to say.
Ultimately I don’t think it matters what happens to us when we die. We won’t care one way or the other; we’ll be dead!
But if she promised something to her then-living husband she should try her best to keep that promise. Sorry Grace.
If I were Grace and Hannah broke a promise that she made to her dying husband in order to humor me, what is there that says Hannah won’t break a promise made to me in order to humor someone else? If people break promises they make to others, they’ll break promises made to me. If I’ll break promises I made to the person in the world who placed the most trust in me, I’ll break promises to anyone.
This may be personal pride, but it’s not a small thing. I am who I say I am. I do what I say I’ll do.
I’m sorry, but that bolded clause is, well, nuts.
Of COURSE being dead is a factor in a person’s reality and worth. Life and consciousness are emergent qualities of biochemical reactions. When those reactions break down, the person no longer exists, and therefore is of less importance than living persons.
Dead people no longer exist. That is what dead means. It is folly to give greater import to their wishes thanto the needs and concerns of the living.
Why is honoring a promise to a person who no longer exists more important to you than saving someone you love pain?
Oh, bullshit. JACK IS DEAD. JACK DOES NOT EXIST.
Now, if you’re a person who believes in life after death – that Jack is watching from Heaven or Valhalla or wherever – then maybe it’s reasonable to continue to give his wishes priority over Grace’s and Hannah’s peace of mind. But if you do not believe in life after death, then I don’t think your position makes any sense.
Incidentally, part of the reason I would choose, in Hannah’s position, to agree to the burial would be for my OWN peace of mind. Hannah doesn’t share Jack’s opposition to burial, and she loves her mother-in-law. To me it seems better to act lovingly toward Grace than to keep her honor spotless, particularly when the promise she is making is to a non-existent person.
Two questions. Well, two and a half:
- If the lesbian’s parents are dead, is she forever bound by her word in your opinion?
- I take it that you belief deception to be categorically wrong. Is that your position,and if so, why?
I respect that, and I don’t think that pride is necessarily a bad thing. Pride can in fact be a motivator to honorable and moral behavior; obviously it is for you. I just don’t think that promises to the dead are of the same significance as promises to the living.
Well, that’s what options 5 & 6 are for. 
I voted for for option one, but would have voted for option 2 as well, if it was multiple choice.
My family was in a similar situation, and we chose the cremation. My grandmother still isn’t comfortable with that, and I feel bad for her, but if it had to be done all over again, I’d still choose the cremation. Fortunately, she understands where we were coming from.
Hannah should follow Jack’s wishes. You shouldn’t make promises if you won’t make the slightest effort to follow through. I also feel that Jack has the absolute right to decide what happens to his body after he dies, as long as his choice doesn’t violate anyone else’s rights.