Widow's beloved mother-in-law asks her to disregard hubby's body-disposal wishes. Should she?

In My Humble Opinion
81

There is a third person who can potentially be harmed in this situation, and that is Hannah herself. She has to balance breaking a promise to Jack, hurting Grace, and any harm to herself from breaking the promise.

The escape clause for the promise could be the REASON Jack wanted his ashes scattered - because he saw burial as a harmful waste of resources. I think he does have continuing rights to control the impact his life has, and this is part of that. So long as someone is willing to offset the resource cost of the burial somehow, then his wishes are filled. Offsetting them to please Grace and ensure family harmony would be well within the intent of his request.

The extreme case of this hypothetical: Bill promises to deliver a letter to the wife of John, who is dying in a trench. John dies, just as a grenade bounces into the trench threatening the rest of the squad. Does Bill dive on the grenade (destroying the letter in the process) or fulfil his promise?

(The point of the extreme example is that promises, like all moral imperatives, are relative not absolute. If the imperative is small - and the promise of what to do with the body of an atheist is a small imperative - then it is easily overridden.)

82

[QUOTE=Hello Again]
So don’t make the promise if you think its of no consequence once the person is dead. Why would you lie to them like that while they’re alive?
[/QUOTE]

Because at the time of making the promise, according to Skald’s premise, I had no reason to believe I would do anything but exactly what the husband requested. Presumably the husband didn’t know about the wishes of his mother either. If the husband had clearly known about the wishes of his mom, and deliberately requested me to promise to ignore them, it might be a different story. But I have no reason to believe that, no reason to believe the husband wanted to inflict that kind of pain on his mother. I must assume that the husband would have, however reluctantly, agreed to go along with his mother’s wishes had he known about them. To follow his mother’s wishes is to violate the promise in word, but presumably not in spirit.

Had the husband known in advance about the way his mom felt and deliberately chose to defy it, the choice is much more difficult. I might still give in to the mother (the husband is still just as dead and therefore can care just as little), but I would feel much worse about it, and it would be a far more painful choice.

83

As Oy! has observed, it could easily be the case that the situation has changed.

Admittedly I made up the hypo on the fly. But as I read Grace’s character, she was so focused on taking care of her son, daughter-in-law, and grandkids that she never gave thought, or allowed herself to give thought, to the cremation issue, thinking she could handle it. Then, when the harsh reality hit her, she found she could not countenance. It seems unlikely that Jack would wish to cause her such distress; he just didn’t have all the information.

84

At some point. Sure. That point arrives when to the best of your knowledge and experience, had the deceased been living, he would have changed his mind. You changing your mind, is an irrelevancy. You are charged with doing what the deceased would have wanted in the circumstances, not what you want in the circumstances.

I guess the way I read this, the deceased knew full well this mother’s objections and did not care. It’s true that’s not in the hypo at all – I am reading in my own experience with people with very specific end-of-life requests. They are all very aware of who will, or will not, approve of their choice. Often they have chosen the person to carry out their wishes, that they consider to be most capable of withstanding the objections from family.

A lot of this could be solved with a will, BTW. People, if you have strong feelings - don’t tell your wife - hire an attorney.

85

So, Skald: Frank, Peter or Other?

86

Aslan is the High King Above All Other Kings in Narnia. Peter specifically gives that as one of the Lion’s titles when he is challenging Miraz to a monomachy.

Peter is High King UNDER Aslan. Caspian, Edmund, Susan, Lucy, and Tirian are all explicit in acknowledging his overlordship.

I’m not sure where Frank would fit, but I expect under Peter. When Old Narnia passes away, Peter is the one Aslan tells to shut the Door. I don’t remember where Frank was at that time, though.

87

If you give your word you should make every effort to keep it. Hello Again raised a key point, you can always renegotiate or get more information from the living.

That said, mitigating circumstances are a fact of life. If my dad wants his ashes spread over Everest I’ll promise to do my best but I might not be able to fulfill that wish.

Yes, a person should have a will with everything laid out but a person should also discuss end of life scenarios with their SO to avoid the potential confusion illustrated by this hypothetical.

Given the OP, I don’t think Grace’s wishes count for shit. It’s a bummer for her but she lost her chance to weigh in when Jack died.

Jack made his wishes known, Hannah promised to honor those wishes. Grace just comes off looking like an asshole for putting Hannah in a difficult position. If Hannah capitulates, she becomes and even bigger asshole.

88

I think Jack is the one whose wishes lost any relevance as soon as he died.

89

I think that’s a very legitimate view, as long as you didn’t make any false promises to Jack, leading him to believe you were the person to effect his wishes when you weren’t.

Fine:
Jack: please scatter my ashes
Dio: If that doesn’t upset anyone else, I will. But if it does upset someone, I won’t feel comfortable doing it.
Jack: Ok, I see your point.
Jack: [dies]
Dio: Well, lets see what everyone thinks of this cremation plan, like I said I would.

Not Fine:
Jack: please scatter my ashes
Dio: No problem bro! My word is my bond!
Jack: [dies]
Dio: Fuck that. Who gives a shit what he wanted anyway?

90

Is that true for the body of a theist?

91

Once he’s dead, he no longer exists. As long as he died thinking his wishes would be fulfilled, then it’s the same as if they really were fulfilled. There is no psychological or emotional difference from Jack’s perspective. It’s his psychological comfort while he’s alive that matters. Making an empty promise gives him comfort, and it’s of no consequence that the promise is empty. Once he’s dead, he cannot be injured and it is more ethical to relieve the emotional distress of his mother than to keep a promise to a piece of meat that doesn’t know the difference.

92

It’s not Grace’s wishes that are at issue. It’s HANNAH’S wishes. That is, she has to choose between doing something to comfort a LIVING person she loves and who loves her, and keeping her promise to a DEAD person she loved, but who cannot be hurt or helped because he is, well, dead.

Asshole? Seriously?

Let’s review. Grace is in her mid-70s, at an age when, I am reliably informed, most human persons are painfully aware of the inevitability and imminence of their own deaths. She has just seen her son die. She is beloved by her daughter-in-law, who considers Grace her best friend and who credits her with restoring – nay, INSTILLING – the belief that not all families are as fucked up as the one she grew up in. She has given of her time, money, and dwindling physical resources to help her son, daughter-in-law, and grandchildren however she can in this tortorous time. Quite likely she was either unaware of her son’s wishes for the disposition of his body or decided to keep her mouth shut on the issue because she felt the decision was his and his wife’s. Less than a day after her son’s death, while comforting her grieving daughter-in-law & friend, she is herself overcome with emotion and blurts out something she perhaps should and surely would kept to herself, except for that whole having just lost her son thing.

Whatever one judges Hannah’s proper priorities to be, none of the above makes Grace an asshole. It just means that she’s neither an angel nor a Vulcan. Which is good, because, really, nobody really wants to have either T’Pau or Uriel at Thanksgiving dinner.

It’s kind of … odd … that you and I are agreeing here, Dio. Frankly it makes me nervous.

Can I get somebody to go make sure the Seventh Seal hasn’t been broken?

93

My problem is that I see it more like this:
Jack: please scatter my ashes
Dio: If that doesn’t upset anyone else, I will. But if it does upset someone, I won’t feel comfortable doing it.
Jack: Gee, thanks a lot, some friend you are.
Jack: [dies]
Dio: Well, lets see what everyone thinks of this cremation plan, like I said I would.

Jack: please scatter my ashes
Dio: No problem bro! My word is my bond!
Jack: Thank you, I’m glad to know I have such wonderful friends.
Jack: [dies]
Dio: Fuck that. Who gives a shit what he wanted anyway?
Is there a point to making Jack unhappy on his deathbed?

94

Cremate him and inter the ashes in the family crypt.

95

That’s not the situation in the hypo. The situation in the hypo is more akin to this:

JACK: [weakly] Please cremate me and scatter my ashes over the Mississippi.
HANNAH: [weeping] Yes, yes, I will, baby, of course I will, just stay a little longer, okay?
JACK: [dies]
(later)
HANNAH: I need to arrange to have my husband’s remains cremated.
FUNERAL GHOUL: Okies! That’ll be four grand, as the state requires us to do all the other stuff first, on account of the legislature being in the funeral lobby’s pocket. I assume you have insurance?
HANNAH: Not for a burial. And we had to borrow against our life insurance to pay for the experimental drugs that didn’t work. I have just enough saved to cover that but I need to buy groceries and pay the rent and crap.
GHOUL: [unctuously] Sucks to be you.
HANNAH: Mom, can you help?
GRACE: No, I’m tapped out too. But my cousin Ari’s a rabbi, and he says that, since Jack is technically a Jew since I was born a Jew, even though I converted, he can get the synagogue to pop for a burial. Do you want to do that?
HANNAH: [muses]

96

Did I miss something? Where was the lack of groceries, and the rabbi, and a failed experimental drug regime in the hypo? There was a dead dude, and a mom freaking out because she can’t pet her son’s decaying corpse for all eternity.

Cremation is by the cheaper option over burial, BTW.

97

I said it was AKIN, not the same situation. In the hypo, it is clearly Grace’s feelings at issue.

The reason I consider the two situations similar (though not identical) is that, in both, Hannah has new information she must take into account while making her decision.

That said, it’s clear the family is in financial trouble; the hypo is explicit that Grace has been giving them money.

98

Agh. This is a mess, although fortunately much less of a mess than many others: I think that either option will turn out ok in the long run.

First, an open question. I think Hannah is entitled to use her own judgement about what Jack would have been ok with. If she thinks Jack would have said “Oh dear. I wanted to be cremated, but I honestly don’t think it matters, so since I’m dead anyway, I’d much rather not cause unnescessary pain to my mother. I’d like to be interred,” then she can do that. And, more likely, Jack might be happy with a compromise, like being cremated, but the ashes stored with his mother’s plot.

Secondly, the usual disclaimers. If someone actually said what Grace said in real life, I’d infer she’s having an understandably very emotional experience, and perhaps doesn’t literally mean what she says: for instance, if talks it over with Hannah, perhaps she’d be equally happy with the ashes being in the tomb, or having a funeral service later after the ashes are scattered, etc. So I’d suggest talking it over. And the entire problem might be solved. But I infer from the question that she is supposed to have TRIED to come to terms with it, over a period of time, but still can’t.

Thirdly, the reason why Hannah should honour her implicit promises to Jack. Obviously it’s not at all obvious why she needs to, but conversely, it is part of society that we DO try to do so, even when promises COULD be broken with expediency (because the principle isn’t there or is dead). I think it’s disingenious to just say “because I can’t see the downside, I should ignore it and it’s stupid to do otherwise”. Very probably that will be the conclusion, but I think that people WANT to keep promises suggests there is some reason, even if an obscure one. I think it’s like the prisoner’s dilemma: even if in each individual case doing the expedient thing is lots better, if EVERYONE does it, people won’t be able to promise at all, because no-one will believe them, and then you’ll waste lots of resources on people trying to legally enforce their will in various circumstances. If so, it’s ok to BEND the promise, so long as everyone tries to gloss over that fact as much as possible. (For instance, Hannah exaggerating to herself that Jack would want to keep his mother happy.) I don’t normally like self-deception, but in this case I think it’s healthy.

In conclusion, I don’t know. I’d look for the best compromise I could and hope for the best.

99

If it enables him to find someone else, someone who will do what he asks, yes.

My husband is dead. All of the things that bound me to him, that he meant to me, they aren’t dead. They will live on as long as I do. Things don’t stop mattering to me just because I can’t get caught.

100

As I understand it, it is impossible (at least in Tennessee) for Jack to find someone other than Hannah to fulfill his post-death wishes. She is his wife – well, widow; her decision about the disposition of his remains trumps all else.

I could easily be wrong, though. But certainly no other member of his family could trump her authority. And in the hypo Grace clearly acknowledges that.