Skald, you and your family were absolutely right, and Grumman, you’re a sad case who would allow some abstract “principle” to destroy the last few hours of a man’s life. Your way may be “honest,” but it’s deeply unkind, and for what? There are abstractions and there are realities. You need to learn to make a distinction.
From the OP, my bolding –
Clearly he made a dying request of his wife with* full knowledge* that his mother would want him to be buried. Hannah made a promise to him that he would be cremated. She should keep that promise.
To paraphrase Billy’s father in Cormac McCarthy’s The Crossing,
In this case, there is a very good reason for not doing what you say.
“and does not wish to pretend that he thinks that one day he’ll be physically resurrected.”
He’s doesnt have to think that though, she does. If the sentence read ‘he does not wish to pretend he will be resurrected for his mothers sake’ Id see your point.
The missing part from this is explicit information about he and his mother discussed the issue, I dont think it can really be inferred on the basis of that sentence.
Otara
Obviously we disagree, but even if there is, there is a better reason for keeping her word.
Inter Jack in the crypt, and then when mother dies, exhume Jack’s corpse, cremate it and scatter…problem solved.
I’m saying they shouldn’t have told a dying man his estranged aunts and uncles were coming to visit him if it wasn’t true. What would they have done if he’d lasted longer than he did? Eventually he’s going to realise they aren’t coming.
Given one of Jacks concerns was the waste of resources, I dont think this would really be likely to be anything close to what he’d want.
And there are a few practical issues. You have to be sure you’re going to live longer than the mother for a start.
Otara
The code of the ThunderCats, no?
Or perhaps the Prime Directive.
He was circling the drain during these lies. His parents were dead. The relatives in question had rejected him [del]because they are assholes[/del] in an attempt to get him to get right with God before he died. :rolleyes: I seem to recall that the exact lie was, “They’re trying to get here. In case they don’t get here in time they all want you to know they love you.”
And, as I wrote earlier, Swiss cheese memory. I wasn’t there the day he died, but I visited him several times in the weeks leading up to it, and each time he was elated to see me because, for him, it was the first time he’d seen me in ages.
Aslan and Superman would have lied to him under those conditions.
There is zero reason for keeping her word. The purpose of making the promise (comforting a dying man) has already been fulfilled. Keeping the promise does nothing but cause pointless distress to the mother, and breaking it is a kindness to the mother which does no harm to the dead. It’s about compassion and kindness, not bullshit, empty honor codes.
I said inter him for two reasons, the first obviously being it will comfort Hannah and not ‘discomfort’ the deceased, and I think he would want his mother comforted more than his body cremated. The other is the two pre-teen children- as they come to grips with their father’s death, which can take years, they may wish to have a place to associate with him as their memories of him fade.
Its interesting to see how polarised the outcomes are.
I can see it either way really.
As in she says ‘Im really sorry MIL but I made a promise to your son, and I dont feel I can break that as he was very clear with his wishes and he has discussed it at length with you. I can see how difficult this is for you, is there anything else I can do to help’.
or:
" Im sure Jack would understand this change in position - his MIL has tried really hard to accept his choice and not pressure him but has found she cant. If Jack knew how big a struggle this was for her, I think he would have changed his mind".
Depending on what other information is available. I do lean to the second though, given MIL is portrayed as sincere rather than trying to ‘win’ at religion.
One obvious issue here is that usually with promises we can go to the person we made it to and ask for it to be altered when circumstances change or at least ask for forgiveness afterwards. That option isnt available here, and its interesting to see how people handle that difference.
Its also interesting for me personally, because I have talked about leaving my body for medical research, and my partner has made it very clear that no matter what I say, it isnt happening.
I guess one major difference is she’s not promising it, but it does leave me kind of screwed. My way of accepting it is she’s the one who would have to live with it, so I understand thats why the law works that way.
Otara
Scald’s Hypo seems to be missing some information. Is the wish to be cremated a direct, deliberate and “meaningful” (to Jack) repudiation of mum and her beliefs? Surely he realises, as an athiest, that it doesn’t matter after he’s dead. So is part of the reason to send a message to mum?
Also, what is the nature of the promise made by Hannah…
Was it a case of
Jack: “Darling wife, I want you to make a blood oath with me that I will be cremated. No matter what happens or if people try to talk you out of it, I do want to be cremated”
Hannah: “Yes darling, I agree with your wishes and make you the oath”
OR
Jack “Darling, when I die I would like to cremated - you ok with that?”
Hannah: “yes darling, I will worship the memory of you, I don’t mind too much the physical remains part”
That mum has been such a pillar of strength would lead me to believe that this is not about a power play, or a dispute between Jack and mum, but rather something that not a lot of thought has gone into, something that Jack didn’gt discuss with mum and he probably didn’t realise how much grief he would be causing.
What I am trying to say is - why not do what you think Jack would like, GIVEN THE NEW (if it is new) INFORMATION.
If you knew all along that Jack wanted to defy mum, this shouldn’t change anything. If you think Jack would have accomodated mum, even though he personally prefers cremation, then put him in the family crypt.
Personally, I am also unequivocal that I would prefer cremation, and don’t believe in any sort of religion. I am also unequivocal that after I am dead I “don’t know nothing” - so I am basically giving my wife a pass to do whatever she thinks best after my death, even if it does run counter to specific requests. I trust her to make the decision she thinks best given the circumstances.
I agree with this. Hannah made a promise, it doesn’t matter if Jack will never know, because Hannah will know. If I marry and vow to “forsake all others” and my wife is away for six months working in Hypothetical Land where people never ever ever find out what happened outside their borders, would it be okay for me to sleep with someone else because my wife will never know? By that logic, ANY promise is meaningless if there is no threat of discovery.
But the closer analogy here is that you promise your wife on her death bed that you will never re-marry. Then seven years later, you meet the perfect woman, and have an opportunity to spend the rest of your life happy as a pig in mud. Do you surrender your future happiness in the name of a promise to someone who now neither knows nor cares nor is capable of ever caring again? People have certainly done exactly that, but I personally believe that the needs of the currently alive supersede those of the currently dead.
This is why I went for #2 (although #1 was an important consideration too). Jack won’t know she broke the promise but she always will.
So what if she knows? She knows she did it for the right reason.
Hannah should say to the mother “I made a solemn promise to my husband as he lay dying. He was very clear in his wishes. If I should make a similar promise to you, would you want me to keep it?”
Stop writing things I agree with, Dio. It’s weird.
ETA: Hit submit too soon. I blame the Welsh.
Anyway, to the people who think Hannah should try to have it both ways – cremate the body and put the cremains in the crypt (or put the cremains in the crypt, wait for Grace to die, and then disinter and cremate Jack’s corpse), I can’t see that as being a viable option. Jack’s stated reason for wanting cremation was to conserve resources, after all, and either course just mentioned is very wasteful.
In your instance no circumstances changed though. The promise was what to do with his remains after he died. The fact that he is now dead does not change the circumstances of that promise one bit. What was the point of Hannah and Jack even discussing what to do if she was going to piss all over his wishes after he was not around to entrust it to someone more trustworthy?
Considering how cavalierly most of the respondents in this thread treat breaking a promise makes me very glad I am not in a position to have to trust any of you with anything important. Most of you are not worthy of such trust.