Will Moussaoui get a pointer to Mecca?

The BBQ Pit
41

This becomes more stupid with every addition you make.

And? This says nothing but Madame el Wafi like many French Muslims never bothered with formal religious education in the family.

next you strangely quote the very evidence of his becoming a practising Muslim:

Somehow you believe this is evidence against devoteness?

By all accounts Moussaouie became converted to radical Salafi practise while he was in London, upon attending the Brixton mosque. He was expelled when he wanted the Imam to give him directions on participating in Jihad, which the Salafi radicals consider a great pillar of the religion.

He then since devouted himself to this radical vision, abandoning his prior plans to become a businessman, etc., for a life of the religious radical.

The pledge of the bayat itself is something only the religiously devout do, the word is a technical one in Islam; his use of the term even says he is practising for he would not use it otherwise.

Only because you wish to close your eyes.

Casual and sporadic? Incredible, you are a fool or an idiot.

Since he “converted” to the radical Salafi beliefs, he has been very connected - in fact devouted his life to Islam - that vision of Islam, but it is the vision of an important minority. For those who belief in this manner, that is religious devotion, even if you for some bizarre and stupid reason want to make a semantic difference, a fake difference.

If you wish to say his devotion is a perversion or something, fine. I agree. But it is devotion, and it is clear from his personal behaviour and appearance during the American trial that he is subscribing to the Salafi practice - the beard, the head covering, all this speaks to him being practising and devout. His appearance before, at his arrest says perhaps he was “hiding” but since then he has not.

42

To end the silly part of this conversation, a cite from the CBC: http://www.cbc.ca/national/news/recruiters/moussaoui.html

You find here his mother and brother commenting on how he became rigidly religious after London, and practising. This should end the stupidity of trying to claim no evidence.

43

:smack: Make that "not the same thing.

44

Maziiadar, I see that English is not your first language. See how I don’t insult you because you don’t express yourself perfectly?

As you do not use English natively, I suggest you be more careful and do not say other people are ‘stupid’, ‘fools’ and ‘idiots’ so quickly. You should be very careful that you have the evidence to make such claims.

More so when the other person is me. Firstly, I claimed there was no positive evidence in the Wiki article. Secondly, this talk of Salafi may all be true, however there was no evidence of it before and it does not appear that you have provided a link to support that claim. Lastly, you will note that I stated my view as a question:

This indicates that I am asking for information, not that I am arguing for a position.

As to your cite, I don’t see where it shows that Moussaoui is a practicing Muslim. These quotes suggest something but I am not sure what.

See how I’ve been all courteous and understanding, where you are vulnerable? Consider it an education.

45

And no real Muslim would pledge his bayat to anyone except Allah, the Prophet Muhammad, and if they are Shia, Hazrat Ali and his successors, of which OBL is decidedly not a part.

46

How about putting the marker in the exact opposite direction for a few years and then telling him that he’s been showing his ass to Mohammed five times a day?

47

First off, Mohammed is not in Mecca. Apparently he flew off to heaven on a horse.

Secondly, if he prayed in the opposite direction, his prayers would still reach Mecca, only it would take a little longer.

Which leads me to ponder the fact that their must be a place on this earth, the exact opposite location from Mecca on this globe where Muslim convicts could be housed without worrying about which direction they must face.

48

The qibla or direction of prayer isn’t considered to point toward Muhammad (who is dead, btw, and thus not considered in Muslim theology to have a physical location on earth any longer), but rather toward the “Sacred Mosque” or Ka`aba, the holy shrine of Mecca. (The Prophet’s grave isn’t even located in Mecca, but rather in Medina.)

And there is no penalty or sin attached to inadvertently offering the salat or Muslim prayers in an incorrect direction:

I think you’re thinking of the “Night Journey”, in which the Prophet is said to have flown to Solomon’s Temple in Jerusalem on a winged horse, and then to have been taken on a tour of heaven by the angel Gabriel. But it was a temporary trip, and he came back and founded Islam.

49

I am serious. I even underlined the word unusual.
Axe murderers, cannibals, mafia bosses etc get to read bibles, talk to the prison chaplain etc. To deliberately deny one prisoner out of all these others the ability to practice their religion would fit right into the unusual punishment category.

50

Do you really want to promote that asshole to martyr status? Bad idea. Let him rot and be forgotten instead.

51

Thanks for the correction.

52

“I want rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists!”

Gotta love Hedley Lamar…

53

Could you repeat that, sir?
-Taggart

54

So you have the knowledge to pronounce takfir on the Muslims you don’t like?

The question was, is Moussaouie practising? The clear answer is there is every sign that by the Salafi standards he most certainly is. “Real” is a term that people like him like to use about others.

55

:dubious:

The man has pledged his bayat to OBL. Traditionally, as I hope you know, bayat was/is a term reserved for the express oath of loyallty to Allah, his Messenger, and the ulil-Amr, i.e. the holders of (divine) authority from the people. As far as I can tell, OBL is none of those, and so, by Moussaouie pledging his bayat to OBL, his devoutness is suspect. He may be loyal and devout to the Salafi sect and to OBL, but to a religion whose very name invokes peace?

56

His devoutness is not suspect if one is not making devoutness mean something more than being devoted to some form of religion, merely his knowledge or understanding in “good” theology or maybe mainstream practices.

His theology may be bad, but that is a unrelated question, unless you want to say that his not really practising as a Salafi.

57

Mecca is at 21° 29’ N, 39° 45’ E. The antipodal location would be 21° 29’ S, 140° 15’ W (in the Pacific amongst the islands of French Polynesia).

58

From the article linked many posts ago:

My intuition says the US will probably never let him go, for any reason. Anyone with knowledge of international affairs like this able to confirm that?

59

Putting them in the middle of the ocean would solve the problem, although one suspects them human rights folks would find something to complain about if we did it. :stuck_out_tongue:

60

Biggest problem is that you quote Wikipedia which I do not consider to be a reliable source. That said, he may not be technically a religious muslim (that is, he doesn’t follow all the tenents) but I think it is safe to say that he is “religious”.