People are already rebelling against the quaratines, and ther is no way they has gone on too long yet.
Basically dummies are Always going to do dumb stuff. Probably infect their friends and relatives while doing so. God bless their little, dumb souls.
Hard to not agree with my brother’s complaints when he can’t put his boat in to go fishing because the boat ramps were ordered closed while I go work side by side with several dozen people from all over this part of the state. And no I don’t trust the PPE or when we take it off to eat.
I wonder if a learning curve is going to kick in at some point. Possibly after Darwin has done some sorting out. https://news.yahoo.com/costly-toll-not-shutting-down-161107861.html
I see groups of teenagers out playing sports or working out together. They have been banned from school properties but they sneak on anyways.
Now right now the police will just yell at them to stop (educate I mean) and not ticket them.
Thats also a big problem where one business complains they have to shut down while their competitor is allowed to stay open.
Time for a little perspective. I’m over sixty, and heading towards the target population of COVID. No one is responsible for me, but me. I have been wearing the surgical mask for at least three years now, ever since the AMA issued their ‘fatwa’ against doctors giving antibiotics for flu. I went from getting influenza 4 to 5 times every year, to once a year or even less. I wear sunglasses to limit risk of sneezes getting crap in my eyes, and carry a solution of Dawn antibacterial, mixed with a little bleach and iso-alcohol (hand cleaner). The elderly can choose to take such precautions, or not. They can choose to self-quarantine, or not. As for COVID, this is no different than flu or pneumonia in its method of transmission. It gets access via the nose, mouth, or eyes. According to posters plastered up around here from the CDC, it incubates in around two weeks and most survive. Them that don’t are usually elderly or very young. This ‘Shelter In Place’ idiocy is simply putrid politicians seeking political mileage from the flames of hysteria being fanned by the noxious news media. They tried to inflate the Legionnaires outbreak into a epidemic, and failed. They tried to do the same with SARS, MERS, Ebola, etc., and failed. That is what the press does now; they turn molehills into mountains, and pass off disinformation as the truth, whole truth, and nothing but…while the gullible sheeple eat it up, and beg for more. One no longer need buy the National Enquirer for a double dose of lies, half-truths, and innuendo. Here’s a little more perspective:
Will this ‘Shelter In Place’ stuff lead to riots or open rebellion? I have little doubt that is exactly what the opportunistic politicians that thought up this crapola are hoping for…an excuse to parlay this into Martial Law, while yet maintaining ‘plausible deniability’, just in case this ploy backfires on them. You all need to look beyond the 'smoke’n’mirrors and propaganda. You all need to start fact-checking what you are being told, and read the ‘fine print’ on the bill of goods you are being sold.
Not sure why you chose to bold “two weeks”. It is luckily less than that anyway. This long period is why it is more of a problem. A really short incubation period would be better, and require less draconian control.
Nor do I understand the “most survive”. Most survive is true with anything up to a 50% fatality rate. This isn’t Ebola. Most people survive that. Just. Nor is the distribution the elderly and the very young. I have no idea where that comes from. Boris Johnson looked death in the eye. He is 55. He probably had a 25% chance of dying. We still don’t know enough about the virus in the human body to fully understand who is more likely to die. New insights are emerging all the time. The latest is starting to suggest that the virus is interfering with the blood’s clotting mechanisms, and many people with only mild risk for such clotting related problems, including diabetics, kidney disease, heart problems etc are being felled because of this. Not certain, but new insights that is already driving care choices.
From your description of your own situation, one might guess that you probably have a poor outlook if you were infected. And here is the problem. Despite your best efforts, by your own account, you get one flu infection a year. So, odds are, that with an opening up of restrictions, you won’t see out the year. If you are comfortable with that fine. But not everyone out there is comfortable with conspiracy theorists making decisions about their lives.
The fatality rate for 50-60 age group is still pretty low, morw like about 5% from what I read. It then jumps to about 10% for the 70+ crowd.
I don’t know what happens in the mild cases, but I assume that the virus does not into the lungs with them. If it does, it seems that things can change very suddenly and dramatically, as in just a very few hours from feeling OK to being dead. That was why Boris was put into hospital and then the ICU so that there was no delay if this sudden change started.
I had not heard about the blood clotting mechanism, which is a very interesting point. Hopefully that will point to a way to treat the severe cases. Anything that reduces the number in hospital and above all in the ICU, will make it easier to ride out this pandemic.
As to what should be done, I would say that social distancing and lots of hand sterilization ought to continue until the situaion gets under control. A full lockdown can only continue for so long.
As for stupid kids disobeying the rules,in parts of Europe minors can only go out if accompanied by an adult. The kids are otherwise at home, getting their lessons from the TV. I saw a report that in Germany the police gave tickets to dozens of people who ignored the rules and disported on a beach. In hindsight it may seem excessive, but let us hope that we can say that.
I’m surprised golf courses aren’t open. A lot of people are complaining about that one. Even going to the governor and asking if they can be reopened if they keep employees separated from customers, only allow 2 people to play at a time, remove the flags from the holes, no golf carts, no 19th hold etc etc etc.
I haven’t seen that yet. Why would one business have to be closed while another in the same category can remain open? Part of the reason liquor stores are still open is because it wouldn’t be fair to close them while grocery stores can still sell booze (also there’s a small but real concern about alcoholics finding themselves in withdrawal).
As an example, Costco and Target sells electronics and clothing while clothing and electronics stores are closed. Same for Lowes/Home Depot and appliances.
Antibiotics are useless against viral infections like the flu.
Where did that number come from? The death rate for people his age is probably somewhere between 1 and 2 percent.
Varsel, for your own sake and that of your loved ones, please understand that you are factually wrong about so, so many things, including everything I have quoted:
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Doctors never took antibiotics for the flu because that would be ridiculous. It would be like taking cough syrup for a skin infection.
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There is no evidence the very young are particularly vulnerable to COVID-19.
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The media was not pushing a “shelter in place” idea ahead of government, and they didn’t push one at all during those other outbreaks. I lived in Toronto during the SARS epidemic of 2003; no one ever suggested a lockdown. It was simply not a thing anyone considered.
The death rate for people his age may be between 1-2% but I’m sure the death rate for people his age who ended up in the ICU is quite a bit higher.
I’ve stated all along that I’m troubled by some of the restrictions. Tho I was pretty roundly criticized around here.
Yesterday I read Illinois’ executive order. I readily grant the compelling state interest, but I disagree that the restrictions are narrowly tailored.
Yesterday, I drove 10 minutes to deliver some Easter treats to my granddaughter, and chatted with the family for a few minutes from approx 10 feet away. As I read the executive order, that was an illegal act - similar to ones I’ve regularly seen people committing all of the time in my neighborhood. Non-essential travel.
My personal experience is that INCREDIBLY minute risks are involved by my driving a short distance and remaining at a distance outside. Obviously, many people disagree, and I think they should feel free to take whatever self-limits they think appropriate.
We also picked up materials at the hardware store to complete home repairs while staying at home. Another illegal activity, as the travel was non-essential.
I think there is a problem caused by making such behavior “illegal” (even though I doubt there will be any meaningful enforcement/penalties.) There is a subtle feeling that, "So long as I am already breaking the law…
Then there is the irrationality of businesses/activities deemed “essential.” Construction? Why? Cannabis cultivation? Sure, it’s medicine! Gun shops?
I’m all for prohibitions as to the size of gatherings, social distancing, even wearing masks in stores. But when the prohibitions say I can’t text someone to take a walk at the same time and meet at a park where we converse 10’ apart, or take my puppy to socialize w/ a neighbor’s dog while the people stay far apart - that impresses me as overreach and increases the chances of my noncompliance. I saw Michigan prohibited folk who own multiple homes from traveling between them. I presume they did not excuse the payment or rent on those second homes…
Hell, if they wish to reduce risks, why don’t they prohibit the sales of cigarettes, soda, and junk foods which are known to exacerbate risk factors?
He was admitted to ICU on oxygen. The prognosis for anyone at that point is seriously poor. There is some suggestion he was being treated particularly carefully, but there is no doubt, he was seriously ill. He out of hospital now, but pretty beaten up.
How could you have bought materials at the hardware store if it was illegal? Because it isn’t. Hardware stores are open because they’re listed as essential in the order you claim to have read. :smack: And in my walks around the neighborhood with my fiancee – also wholly legal 
– I see plenty of people doing home repairs, maintenance, and improvement. Again because it’s not illegal under the order.
(Emphasis added.)
We could certainly disagree, but why do you have to question whether I actually read the order? :rolleyes:
Here - I’ll quote some for ya (tho I supposed I could do so w/o having read it!)
Emphasis added. Could I leave my home to drive a friggin truck through THAT loophole?
Is interest in minor house repair which I have managed to put off for years “necessary to maintain the safety, sanitation, and essential operation of residences.” So basically - it says shopping is permitted? And no restrictions that I choose the closest store, or limit my purchases other than to what I consider “necessary.” Or, is the overall tenor of the order intended to discourage “nonessential”, “risky” activities in public? So, I can drive to the store to pick up pizza and beer - because the grocery store is (properly, IMO) deemed essential, but I can’t just gas up the car and take a drive in the country? And do you want to explain the essential nature of gun shops?
Let me see if I can randomly quote some other language w/o reading the order.
Does the order permit social gatherings of small size, whatever environment/distance? Or are such gatherings OK so long as I deem them “essential to [my] health and safety.” If you do not live in the same household as your fiancee, I think the EO prohibits your walks.
Other than your objection to my characterization of the hardware purchase as “illegal”, do you believe IL EO 2020-10 reasonable and narrowly tailored to achieve compelling state interests?
And I didn’t get to the complexity of figuring out what is expressly prohibited/permitted by my county and municipality. Or neighboring states/counties/municipalities…
I think we should all be super careful to eliminate ALL risks, and we should stay at home with plastic bags firmly fastened over our heads. That way, we can ensure that we will neither transmit nor acquire the virus. :dubious:
I don’t envy the governors issuing the executive orders - if they allow the hardware stores to be open so that I can buy what’s needed to replace a leaky faucet , someone will complain that completing long-neglected household repairs isn’t an emergency. How is anyone going to know if my faucet just started leaking or if I’ve been putting it off for months? If they don’t restrict me to the nearest hardware store/grocery store/pharmacy , then why can’t I just take a recreational drive in the woods or to a state park - after, all I’m allowed to walk or jog in my own neighborhood why shouldn’t I drive to a larger park to hike? I’m pretty sure in my state clothing stores aren’t allowed to open, but does that mean Target/Walmart have act like they are under the Bergen county NJ blue laws, and rope off any aisles that aren’t selling grocery items?
If you really look into all these things, you will find that some are permitted because there is no way practical to prohibit them and others have reasons you just haven't though of behind them - for example, the second homes? I can't speak specifically about Michigan but I do know there have been issues in some states with people traveling to summer homes. One issue has been people traveling from a hotspot to a non-hotspot and related to that is the fact that there are not enough goods and services in these places to handle a summer/weekend influx full-time in April - they don't have enough doctors and clinics and hospital beds* and they are afraid the second-home owners will empty the grocery store shelves. I'm sure there are some restrictions that make no sense but not nearly all of those that appear nonsensical at first glance.
*which is less of an issue for people coming out on summer weekends- if they are sick enough to need a doctor on Friday, they are likely to stay at their full-time residence.
Dinsdale, I reacted to your characterization because it was wrong. Under the clear terms of the order, a hardware store is essential and traveling to and from a hardware store is permitted. What you do with the materials on your own property isn’t even within the scope of the order because working on your own home is staying at home.
In my understanding, the purpose of stay-at-home is to keep physical interactions outside one’s home (and surrounding property) and one’s household to a reasonable minimum, no more and no less. It’s not to prevent every possible method of spreading covid-19 on one extreme, nor to make life spartan for spartanness’s sake on the other extreme. The exceptions that have been established strike me as generally reasonable and generally consistent with that purpose. To address the particular instance being debated, it seems clear to me that the purpose of including hardware stores in the list of essential business is to allow people to maintain their homes, yards, etc.
Reasonableness in the law is always going to be a balancing act where reasonable people differ as to where the line should be drawn. However, just because there isn’t one pellucidly obvious “2+2=4” derived-from-the-natural-universe answer doesn’t make the whole exercise illegitimate or arbitrary. Whether a person is an adult at 16, 18, 21, 25 or some other number has been debated for years, with scientific and experiential evidence for various positions. Nonetheless, lines have been drawn in the law, and indeed different numbers for different purposes (18 to vote, 21 to drink alcohol, for instance). Without delving into cases, those lines have survived judicial review on claims of arbitrariness. A 19-year-old’s feeling that he should be able to drink booze, and $2.50, get you a cup of coffee. 
A lot of people are talking about a plan to reopen the economy as though the issue was that governments have shut things down, and if they’d just be less draconian, more businesses could open up again.
But that’s largely not the case. Fear of infection shut things down, and governments helped provide some structure over exactly how that shutdown would work.
If you look at, for example, restaurant reservations, they dropped from normal levels in late Feb to basically 0 in mid-march, and that’s independent of when various local governments instituted shutdowns.
If governments lifted restrictions on bars and restaurants and movie theaters tomorrow, those businesses would mostly get just a trickle of customers.