...will the board consider explicit transphobia hate-speech?

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

Jragon, I totally get it if you decide to quit the board, but I selfishly hope you don’t, because I learn a lot from you. You’re appreciated!

[Bone]

I think this is a very worthwhile discussion but since I’m pretty ignorant on many of the nuances I’m mostly just reading rather than participating.

[Jragon]

@Jragon

(like Rachel McKinnon’s “it’s transphobic to not be pan” is just… I do not know a single trans person who hasn’t thought that was the stupidest take)

Straw poll: Imgur: The magic of the Internet

[Max_S]

@Riemann

Ask him what? The misgendering is unambiguous in his more recent post that I quoted above. Given his familiarity with the issues, it is certainly also deliberate imo.

I asked, and unless you think Urbanredneck was dishonest in his reply, it was an honest mistake.

@Urbanredneck

@Max_S

Urbanredneck, there’s a question floating around ATMB as to whether you are deliberately misusing the terms transman and transwoman, or whether you are simply confused about the terms.

The standard definition of transman is a person who identifies as a man, but was assigned the female sex at birth.

The standard definition of transwoman is a person who identifies as a woman, but was assigned the male sex at birth.

I ask because a transman trying out for a woman’s scholarship would be counter to the trans movement’s goal of recognizing transmen as men. Your previous post also implied that transwomen aren’t real men, and transmen aren’t real women, which seems backwards from what I understand of your position.

~Max

Yes, guilty of confusion. Perhaps I’ll just say trans person since I cannot get them correct.

~Max

[iiandyiiii]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Jragon, I totally get it if you decide to quit the board, but I selfishly hope you don’t, because I learn a lot from you. You’re appreciated!

Seconded!

[Jragon]

@Max_S

I asked, and unless you think Urbanredneck was dishonest in his reply, it was an honest mistake.

~Max

I honestly strain to believe anyone could possibly reasonably think a “trans man” refers to a trans woman if they know even the slightest amount about trans people (including the small amount needed to complain about it). Like even the articles Urban Redneck links get it right, and he’s surely heard famous trans women referred to as “trans women”, not to mention all the people – including everyone on his side of the debate – consistently using it correctly on the board in the numerous trans discussions he’s participated in going back a couple years. “I have trouble keeping them straight” seems like a not-even-that-cryptic way of saying “I can’t tell trans women apart from men” (and the same for trans men). But whatever, I don’t care enough to give an opinion on modding either way.

[MrDibble]

@Bone

I think this is a very worthwhile discussion but since I’m pretty ignorant on many of the nuances I’m mostly just reading rather than participating.

Same here.

[Max_S]

@Jragon

You are, of course, not entirely wrong. I was being slightly hyperbolic, but also:

1. While for people who have the luxury of taking a more detached stance (i.e. people whom the issues do not affect directly) it’s easy to get into a political slapfight in GD and then be buddies in CS. It’s a bit… uh… it’s a bit more personal when you know a poster involved thinks you in particular are evil/fake/gross/whatever because of your gender/gender id/orientation etc. It’s harder to just shove that aside even if they’re being polite in the moment.

It’s not easy to put ideological differences aside, but it’s part of life. Catholics have told me, to my face, that they believe I am guilty of mortal sins and will spend eternity burning in the depths of hell, repeatedly being sodomized by demons and being skinned alive etc - that I deserve to do so. I disagree with them on many, many levels. It doesn’t affect whether we can stay friends. That’s what it means to be tolerant.

One of my former friends was right on the edge of being a white supremacist. I am ethnically Chinese-Ashkenazi (third-generation/fourth-generation immigrants respectively), and my normally light skin turns yellow then dark, dark brown with exposure to sunlight. We drifted apart geographically, but while we were friends I didn’t ignore or accept his ideology.

Half of my extended family - probably more than half - affiliates with the Democratic party. That doesn’t prevent us from getting together every now and again and having a good time. My Republican father recently pulled an old-man-pissed-off-at-everything-especially-Democrats on my cousin, a Democrat activist and homosexual twice my age. After at least two hours attempting to keep a civil tone, the debate ended with two grown men laughing and hugging eachother with smiles all around.

@Jragon

2. The SDMB and I don’t have grossly overlapping interests anymore, a few things here and there but largely I’ve found e.g. the video games I tend to like aren’t discussed and the threads I used to try and make routinely sunk like stones.

I don’t play too many video games so I don’t know if I could help in that department. But beware the bystander effect. If everybody is waiting for activity in video game threads before they start participating, the threads never get up off the ground.

@Jragon

3. I do participate in other threads, or at least read them, but I also feel some duty knowing I’m one of the only active trans posters to keep abreast of the related topics. Maybe duty isn’t even the right word, but something like that. It’s important the conversation doesn’t get away from me.

You feel a duty to eradicate ignorance? That’s commendable! But if it’s stressing you out too much, don’t do it.

@Jragon

4. Like I alluded to, a lot of this is inertia. I’ve been here since I was like… 17? I was immensely shittier of a person back then, but I’ve been here on and off for 12 years. Even if I find a lot uncomfortable and annoying it’s difficult to just leave it behind.

@Jragon

I guess the more general answer is that it’s easy for you, a cis person, to not notice all the discussions about trans people going on. However, as a trans person, you’re acutely aware of the ones that start. You may not catch all of them, but you will catch a lot if you’re even remotely active. And after that points like 1 come into affect and it can slowly poison the board. Especially since it’s exceptionally hard to just sit there and ignore this conversation about your rights and identity just going on in another thread without reading it and trying to defend yourself. I really don’t have to search to find this stuff, I found most of the recent ones just by browsing normally. It’s just searching lets me get there a little quicker when I’m so inclined.

I guess what I’m saying is, while it’s true I come here and search “trans” a lot, that’s for a big mix of reasons. I honestly spend most of my time just browsing threads, but then these things come in spurts and I gotta brace myself for whenever Trans Month™ starts and be ready to make a bunch of effort posts. It’s honestly just easier to be proactive about it than wait for it to pop into my feed (which it will 90% of the time if I’m around).

That’s understandable, I suppose. I get tired of doing politics and constitutional law all the time, and by the time a debate is finished I’m happy that it’s over even if I’ve lost. Debating is exhausting. What can I say except, if it’s not working for you, don’t do it?

~Max

[Pantastic]

OK, so from this thread it sounds like the board is fine with asserting that someone is not a real man or woman. So it appears that it would be fine to respond to a poster saying ‘trans women aren’t real women, they just pretend to be’ with ‘men who don’t respect gender identity aren’t real men’. Or is questioning the realness of someone’s gender only allowed if they are trans, and questioning whether a cis person is a real man or woman is strictly against board rules?

[Darren_Garrison]

@Pantastic

So it appears that it would be fine to respond to a poster saying ‘trans women aren’t real women, they just pretend to be’ with ‘men who don’t respect gender identity aren’t real men’.

Under a definition of man=adult male human and woman=adult female human, saying that someone isn’t actually an adult male human because they don’t “respect gender identity” is nonsensical.

[scabpicker]

@BigT

I see no sign that this is just an honest miscommunication.

I would advise never ascribing to malice that which can be sufficiently explained through ignorance. Their subsequent communication with Max S. seems to back up my position.

[Max_S]

@Pantastic

OK, so from this thread it sounds like the board is fine with asserting that someone is not a real man or woman. So it appears that it would be fine to respond to a poster saying ‘trans women aren’t real women, they just pretend to be’ with ‘men who don’t respect gender identity aren’t real men’. Or is questioning the realness of someone’s gender only allowed if they are trans, and questioning whether a cis person is a real man or woman is strictly against board rules?

The novelty of that definition of men suggests that you made it up as a petty “no you” response, rather than it being a sincere argument. I mean, it is possible that you define the male gender such that people who do not respect gender identity cannot be male. It doesn’t pass the smell test, but I suppose it is possible if you are serious about redefining the male gender in such a way.

~Max

[Annoyed]

@Urbanredneck

NO, transwomen are transwomen and transmen are transmen. Not REAL men and women. Just because you choose to identify as someone doesnt change that fact.

NO, they dont.

And WOMEN have periods. Not “People”.

Not understanding why the above statement would in any way be considered “hate speech”.

That is a statement of fact, its undeniable, and trying to stop people from being able to say it is a weak position to have.

I cant comprehend why people on the left have this crazy fixation with stopping people from saying things.

[Left_Hand_of_Dorkness]

@Annoyed

Not understanding why the above statement would in any way be considered “hate speech”.

That is a statement of fact, its undeniable

Your first paragraph is resoundingly clear. Your second one begins with nonsense.

[AHunter3]

@Darren_Garrison

Under a definition of man=adult male human and woman=adult female human, saying that someone isn’t actually an adult male human because they don’t “respect gender identity” is nonsensical.

Why would we (after all that’s been said in this thread) define “man” as “adult male human”?

[Darren_Garrison]

@AHunter3

Why would we (after all that’s been said in this thread) define “man” as “adult male human”?

Inerta, from generation after generation after generation after generation of it meaning precisely that?

[Darren_Garrison]

I have two dictionaries on my phone. In the Oxford Dictionary of English, this is the definition:

man /man /
▸ noun
(plural men /mɛn/)
1 an adult human male:
a small man with mischievous eyes
the men’s semi-finals.
a male member of a workforce, team, etc.:
over 700 men were made redundant.
(men) ordinary members of the armed forces as distinct from the officers:
he had a platoon of forty men to prepare for battle.
a husband or lover:
the two of them lived for a time as man and wife.
[with modifier] a male person associated with a particular place, activity, or occupation:
a Cambridge man
I’m a solid Labour man.
a person with the qualities associated with males, such as bravery, spirit, or toughness:
she was more of a man than any of them.
a male pursued or sought by another, especially in connection with a crime:
Inspector Bull was sure they would find their man.
dated a manservant or valet:
get me a cocktail, my man.
historical a vassal.
2 a human being of either sex; a person:
God cares for all men.
(also Man) [in singular] human beings in general; the human race:
places untouched by the ravages of man.
[in singular] an individual; one:
a man could buy a lot with eighteen million dollars.
[in singular, with adjective or noun modifier] a type of prehistoric human named after the place where the remains were found:
Cro-Magnon man.
3 (the Man) informal a group or person in a position of authority over others, such as a corporate employer or the police:
they’ve mastered their emotive grunge-pop without haggling with the Man.
informal white people collectively regarded as the controlling group in society:
he urged that black college athletes boycott the Man’s Rose Bowl.
4 a figure or token used in playing a board game.
▸ verb
(mans, manning, manned)
[with object]
1 (of personnel) work at, run, or operate (a place or piece of equipment) or defend (a fortification):
the helpline is manned by trained staff
the firemen manned the pumps and fought the blaze.
provide someone to fill (a post):
the chaplaincy was formerly manned by the cathedral.
2 archaic fortify the spirits or courage of:
he manned himself with dauntless air.
▸ exclamation informal, chiefly North American used, irrespective of the sex of the person addressed, to express surprise, admiration, delight, etc., or for emphasis:
wow, like cosmic, man.
– PHRASES
as —— as the next man
as —— as the average person:
I’m as ambitious as the next man.
as one man
with everyone acting together or in agreement:
the crowd rose to their feet as one man.
be someone’s (or the) man
be the person perfectly suited to a particular requirement or task:
if it’s war you want, I’m your man.
be man enough to do (or for)
be brave enough to do:
he has not been man enough to face up to his responsibilities.
every man for himself and the Devil take the hindmost proverb
everyone should (or does) look after their own interests rather than considering those of others:
in previous student flats she’d shared, it was every man for himself.
[with allusion to a chase by the Devil, in which the slowest will be caught.]
make a man out of someone
(of an experience or person) turn a young man into a mature adult:
swimming will make a man out of you.
man about town
a fashionable male socialite:
in a well-cut black suit he looked quite the man about town.
man and boy
from childhood:
I’ve been with this company man and boy.
the man in black Soccer informal
the referee:
I would not put it past the men in black to get things horribly wrong.
the man in the moon
the imagined likeness of a face seen on the surface of a full moon.
figurative
used, especially in comparisons, to refer to someone regarded as out of touch with real life:
a kid with no more idea of what to do than the man in the moon.
the man in (or on) the street
the average man:
he had been his eyes and ears in the community, voiced the opinions of the man in the street.
the man in white Australian Rules Football informal
an umpire, especially a field umpire:
he’s constantly on the wrong side of the whistle of the man in white.
man of action see action.
man of the cloth
a clergyman.
man of God
a clergyman.

a holy man or saint.
man of honour
a man who adheres to what is right or to a high standard of conduct:
as a man of honour he had little alternative but to accompany his friend to America.
man of the house
the male head of a household.
man of letters
a male scholar or author:
he wished to fashion for himself a career as a man of letters.
man of the match British
the team member who has given the most outstanding performance in a particular game:
McClair, who scored the only goal, was named man of the match.
man of the moment
a man of importance at a particular time.
man of straw
1
a person regarded as having no substance or integrity:
a leader who was once derided as a man of straw.
2
a person undertaking a financial commitment without adequate means.
man of the world see world.
the man on the Clapham omnibus British
the average man, especially with regard to his opinions:
his was not a voice in the wilderness; he was speaking for the man on the Clapham omnibus.
man’s best friend
an affectionate or approving way of referring to dogs:
a collection of photographs of man’s best friend.
a man’s man
a man who is more popular and at ease with other men than with women:
he looks offended when I tell him he is perceived as a man’s man.
man to man /ˌman tə ˈman /
1
in a direct and frank way between two men:
he was able to talk man to man with the delegates.
2
denoting a defensive tactic in soccer or other sport in which each player is responsible for marking one opponent:
the best man-to-man marker in the game.
men in (grey) suits
powerful men within an organization who exercise their authority anonymously:
the prime minister was removed from Ten Downing Street by men in grey suits.
men in white coats see white coat.
my (or my good or my dear) man British dated
a patronizing form of address to a man:
come off it, my man, who d’you think you’re talking to?
separate (or sort out) the men from the boys informal
show or prove which people in a group are truly competent, brave, or mature:
this match will separate the men from the boys.
to a man
without exception:
to a man, we all took a keen interest in the business.
– PHRASAL VERBS
man up US informal be brave or tough enough to deal with an unpleasant situation:
you just have to man up and take it.
– DERIVATIVES
manless adjective
– ORIGIN Old English man(n), (plural) menn (noun), mannian (verb), of Germanic origin; related to Dutch man, German Mann, and Sanskrit manu ‘mankind’.
Traditionally the word man has been used to refer not only to adult males but also to human beings in general, regardless of sex. There is a historical explanation for this: in Old English the principal sense of man was ‘a human being’, and the words wer and wif were used to refer specifically to ‘a male person’ and ‘a female person’ respectively. Subsequently, man replaced wer as the normal term for ‘a male person’, but at the same time the older sense ‘a human being’ remained in use.In the second half of the twentieth century the generic use of man to refer to ‘human beings in general’ (as in reptiles were here long before man appeared on the earth) became problematic; the use is now often regarded as sexist or at best old-fashioned. In some contexts, alternative terms such as the human race or humankind may be used. Fixed phrases and sayings such as time and tide wait for no man can be easily rephrased, e.g. time and tide wait for nobody. Alternatives for terms such as manpower or the verb man exist: for example, staff or employees, and to staff or to operate.

And in Merriam-Webster it is this:

1man
noun\ˈman, in compounds ˌman or mən\

: an adult male human being
: a man or boy who shows the qualities (such as strength and courage) that men are traditionally supposed to have
: a woman’s husband or boyfriend
Full Definition
plural men\ˈmen, in compounds ˌmen or mən
1 a (1) : an individual human; especially : an adult male human (2) : a man belonging to a particular category (as by birth, residence, membership, or occupation) — usually used in combination councilman (3) : husband I now pronounce you man and wife. (4) : lover He was her man.
b : the human race : humankind the history of man
c : a bipedal primate mammal (Homo sapiens) that is anatomically related to the great apes but distinguished especially by notable development of the brain with a resultant capacity for articulate (see 1articulate) speech and abstract reasoning, and is the sole living representative of the hominid family; broadly : any living or extinct hominid
d (1) : one possessing in high degree the qualities considered distinctive of manhood (such as courage, strength, and vigor) (2) obsolete : the quality or state of being manly : manliness
e : fellow, chap — used as mode of familiar address
f —used interjectionally to express intensity of feeling man, what a game
2 a : individual, person a man could get killed there
b : the individual who can fulfill or who has been chosen to fulfill one’s requirements she’s your man
3 a : a feudal tenant : vassal
b : an adult male servant
c men plural : the working force as distinguished from the employer and usually the management The men have been on strike for several weeks.
4 a : one of the distinctive objects moved by each player in various board games
b : one of the players on a team nine men on each side
5 : an alumnus of or student at a college or university a Bowdoin man
6 Christian Science : the compound idea of infinite Spirit : the spiritual image and likeness of God : the full representation of Mind
7 often capitalized : police when I heard the siren, I knew it was the Man — Amer. Speech
8 often capitalized : the white establishment : white society surprise that any black … should take on so about The Man — Peter Goldman
9 : one extremely fond of or devoted to something specified strictly a vanilla ice cream man
man·less\ˈman-ləs\ adjective
man·like-ˌlīk\ adjective
as one man : with the agreement and consent of all : unanimously The council voted as one man.
one’s own man : free from interference or control He left home and moved to the city to become his own man.
to a man : without exception His friends, to a man, supported him.
Examples
He was a shy boy, but he grew to be a strong and confident man.
He’s a grown man now.
The movie is popular with men and women.
OriginMiddle English, from Old English man, mon human being, male human; akin to Old High German man human being, Sanskrit manu.
First known use: before 12th century
Synonyms: bastard, bloke [chiefly British], buck, cat, chap [chiefly British], chappie [British], dude, fella, fellow, galoot [slang], gent, gentleman, guy, hombre, jack, joe, joker, lad, male
2man
verb
: to be the person who controls or is in charge of (something)
: to place people at or on (something) to do work
Full Definition
manned; man·ning
transitive verb
1 a : to supply with people (as for service) man a fleet
b : to station members of a ship’s crew at man the capstan
c : to serve in the force or complement of man the ticket booth
2 : to accustom (a bird, such as a hawk) to humans and the human environment
3 : to furnish with strength or powers of resistance : brace
Examples
He stocked shelves while I manned the cash register.
We’ll need someone to man the phones this evening.
No one was manning the front desk.
Originsee 1man.
First known use: 12th century
3man
abbreviation
manual

[AHunter3]

You are not, yourself, saying this is the definition we should utilize, though, right? I’m not misconstruing you?

[Jragon]

Do note that “adult female/male human” is (besides being meaningless, trans men are still male) a common transphobic dogwhistle used in actual hate propaganda

[Jragon]

Like to be honest I’m not sure what this whole “male/female” thing is, it has never made sense. Like people hear “man” changing and are like “ah, so MALE still means the same thing! Haha! I’ve got it!” and like… no? They’re still synonyms guys, the change in one implies the change to the other, and is also immensely disingenuous. Like if I pointed at a dude (passing or otherwise) and said “he’s male” you almost certainly wouldn’t assume I meant AMAB/has a penis, prostate etc, UNLESS YOU ALREADY HOLD THAT MEN MUST HAVE THOSE THINGS. That is, you wouldn’t treat the phrase as any differently from “he’s a man/boy”. It’s just restating the argument with different words.

You may as well just say what you mean: “an adult cis man.”