...will the board consider explicit transphobia hate-speech?

Yeah, this is a new one for some of us. I got called out for that on another forum and I said “What?” Because I’m not embedded in those communities and didn’t get the memo. Still do it the old way out of long-standing habit.

I get that members of a minority can be very sensitive (particularly when the trait that makes them a minority is not viewed as a positive by many) and have their own dialect, but expecting those outside the minority group to be highly knowledgeable about those nuances is a route to disappointment. No, I’m not going to get all the nuances because I don’t belong to that group.

For instance, I have never heard the term “transmedicalism” before and had to Google it. Which, to this outsider-to-the-community, looks like there is also an element of older vs. younger generation at play with that one. Not touching that one with a ten foot pole, at least not here.

Trust me, I got yelled at too. This was like over a year ago, but the change blind-sided me as well. People get waaaaay too bent out of shape about it. It’s gotten so normal to me it’s kind of annoying to see it the old way now just because it looks wrong, but I was just noting the change in language for everyone’s benefit.

Yes, there is an element of age involved, in that there is a huge gap between old school “transsexuals” and the modern trans*/queer community. A looooooot of (possibly even most) older people have either come to the newer way of thinking or always found the old viewpoints kind of dumb, but there’s is a very staunch old guard on certain issues. I could’ve used the more common but vastly more (intentionally) impolite term “truscum”*, but I generally don’t apply that term to people unless they’re super well versed on trans issues and deliberately taking transmedicalism as a principled stance against other gender identities (e.g. binary trans people** being deliberately bigoted).

  • Impolite is also slightly relative, they use it to describe themselves entirely unironically at this point. So shrug, regardless, didn’t want to get warned for seeming to call much of the board “scum” :stuck_out_tongue:
    ** For the record, I typed this as “transpeople” and had to go back and put a space, so don’t feel bad at all :stuck_out_tongue:

You are, of course, not entirely wrong. I was being slightly hyperbolic, but also:

  1. While for people who have the luxury of taking a more detached stance (i.e. people whom the issues do not affect directly) it’s easy to get into a political slapfight in GD and then be buddies in CS. It’s a bit… uh… it’s a bit more personal when you know a poster involved thinks you in particular are evil/fake/gross/whatever because of your gender/gender id/orientation etc. It’s harder to just shove that aside even if they’re being polite in the moment.

  2. The SDMB and I don’t have grossly overlapping interests anymore, a few things here and there but largely I’ve found e.g. the video games I tend to like aren’t discussed and the threads I used to try and make routinely sunk like stones.

  3. I do participate in other threads, or at least read them, but I also feel some duty knowing I’m one of the only active trans posters to keep abreast of the related topics. Maybe duty isn’t even the right word, but something like that. It’s important the conversation doesn’t get away from me.

  4. Like I alluded to, a lot of this is inertia. I’ve been here since I was like… 17? I was immensely shittier of a person back then, but I’ve been here on and off for 12 years. Even if I find a lot uncomfortable and annoying it’s difficult to just leave it behind.

  5. Some (maybe even a lot) of it is honestly just because I felt like rubbernecking. Like “lol wonder if anyone posted dumb trans stuff on the sdmb”. It’s not always stressful, but then after laughing I can’t help myself from making 8 paragraph effortposts which is really just my own fault.

I guess the more general answer is that it’s easy for you, a cis person, to not notice all the discussions about trans people going on. However, as a trans person, you’re acutely aware of the ones that start. You may not catch all of them, but you will catch a lot if you’re even remotely active. And after that points like 1 come into affect and it can slowly poison the board. Especially since it’s exceptionally hard to just sit there and ignore this conversation about your rights and identity just going on in another thread without reading it and trying to defend yourself. I really don’t have to search to find this stuff, I found most of the recent ones just by browsing normally. It’s just searching lets me get there a little quicker when I’m so inclined.

I guess what I’m saying is, while it’s true I come here and search “trans” a lot, that’s for a big mix of reasons. I honestly spend most of my time just browsing threads, but then these things come in spurts and I gotta brace myself for whenever Trans Month™ starts and be ready to make a bunch of effort posts. It’s honestly just easier to be proactive about it than wait for it to pop into my feed (which it will 90% of the time if I’m around).

E: Apologies if that was confusing, it is 4AM and I really should be sleeping.

A couple of days ago when I was trying to dredge up some of the “prostate exams for people with prostates” links, I found this.

I would like to dissent.

“Disorder”, like “illness”, specifically labels a difference as a wrongness. And a variation from the norm can be a superiority, or a qualitatively equal difference. MENSA does not position itself as a support group for sufferers of “hyperintelligence disorder”.

And yes, some of us consider the normative gender identities to be pathological. You’ve encountered this if you were around for early 1970s feminism: the notion that what we regard as “femininity” and “masculinity” are twisted, corrupted, artificially imposed constraints upon who a person can and might be.

Politically, we don’t say so. First, because it’s biased and we know it (& those who don’t get pulled into place within MOGII / LGBTQ discussion groups). If we don’t appreciate being regarded as wrong, deviant, pathological just because we’re different, how much sense does it make for us to project that same attitude onto the majority? Secondly – more strategically – we want a “live and let live” environment. If the conventional gender identities aren’t particularly healthy for people, establishing accepted alternatives will give people a space into which to escape them; if they’re perfectly health and we’re just statistical outliers (and I’ve actually come to believe that), the majority of people born female will continue to see themselves in conventional feminine / woman identities and those born male will view themselves as men and manly and so forth – but the minority who don’t fit will have far happier lives as gender becomes descriptive instead of prescriptive, and we get included in the descriptions.

This is a rather inaccurate summation, IMO. It is just not reasonable to think he means “genetically male” and “genetically female.” The context of the post is that he claims that trans people try to argue they are “real men/women.” That doesn’t make sense if you replace it with “genetically male,” as trans men do not argue they are genetically male, and trans women do not argue they are genetically female. What’s more, the context of the thread is making fun of trans people for their beliefs, so he’s already priming the pump. And then, despite using the words properly in the post in question, he repeatedly uses trans men and trans women incorrectly.

It seems quite clear to me he is being deliberately transphobic. And what I (and I suspect others) want to happen isn’t “someone tells him he used the wrong words.” I want him to get moderator intervention saying something so blatantly hateful is not allowed, and to start treating such as forbidden. Even a Note saying it’s not allowed

What I want is for trans issues (and racial issues, and LGBT issues) to be modded like women’s issues. It doesn’t make sense to me to agree we need to make the place more welcoming to women and thus getting rid of misogynist posts, but not to also use that same logic for racist, homophobic, and transphobic posts.

I see no sign that this is just an honest miscommunication.

Said trans person already misuses “triggered”, and acts as if it’s a choice, despite, as a trans person, to have likely experienced real triggering. No one chooses to feel gender dysphoria (or whatever other mental anguish is being triggered).

The writer is strawmanning actual positions in the same way that anti-trans media likes to do. The argument is not that “transgendered” is transphobic. It is that the term implies that something has been done to them, like other -ed words. They say it’s like calling a black person “blacked.”

The argument for trans woman and trans man is that trans women and trans men are really men and really women, not something else that needs a new word. It’s not that the lack of space is transphobic.

However, what happens when a minority has preferred terms is that those who oppose them will intentionally use older, non-preferred terms to get under their skin. (For example, “Democrat Party.”) And that is why the usage starts to come across as transphobic. Someone who doesn’t know isn’t being transphobic, but when someone is knowingly using the wrong terms.

The post contains a lot of ridicule of trans positions, but doesn’t actually propose any counterargument. It picks a single incident where it turned out a situation was more complicated than it seems (turns out woman who didn’t want room with a trans woman had been raped by one), and uses that to attack “the trans community,” ignoring the fact that the poster supposedly is a part of that community.

It also contains a lot of fairly uncontroversial opinions in the trans community, but presents them as being different from what trans people belief. Such includes saying she doesn’t think trans women should participate in sports or that trans children should not be given drugs to help them transition before they are of age.

Then there’s arguing that, because one trans person laughed at some jokes, they can’t possibly be transphobic. Or an irrelevant argument about whether or not it was misleading to list trans people under a tweet about trans murders if they weren’t murdered for being trans. (When your message is about the trans community, you can’t use evidence that had nothing to do with them.) I could go on, but I’ll stop before I wind summarizing the entire article.

Point is, you could remove the claim that they are trans, and the entire post doesn’t change. Their trans status is being played as a card, as if being trans suddenly makes the same bad arguments more credible.

Bad arguments are bad arguments, no matter who makes them.

I generally agree with the sentiment of the article for calling out unhelpful behavior but at the same time it troubles me. I have real life trans friends, and they are pretty laid-back people. They’re not fretting over pronouns or labels all the time. One of my friends just got back from Argentina where she had an operation, not because she wanted to, but she felt she had to in order to be more accepted by society. A person shouldn’t feel compelled to fly to another hemisphere to undergo an expensive medical procedure to encourage people to see her as she sees herself.

I worry that an article like this just reinforces the insistence by people that folks like my friend should get over themselves. As well-intentioned as it might be, I’m concerned that this just gives ammo to those who are dismissive of trans and larger LGBTQ+ issues.

I’m a Republican and shit along similar lines routinely gets said about Republicans outside the Pit, even when, or perhaps especally when, I’m participating. It doesn’t generally count as a personal attack.

Does this somehow excuse it when it happens to the transgendered?

I don’t think it should be considered a violation of the rule against personal attacks, or if it’s treated as a violation of the rule against personal attacks in this case, it should also be treated as a violation of the rule against personal attacks in other similar circumstances: religion, political ideology, etc.

Because if we water down the topic to included every perceived slight known the task becomes to large to take on and the original problem gets buried?
No thank you-try again.

I agree completely, QFT. At a minimum, if we became so rigid in our responses to each and every superficial use of language, terms, or minor concepts that some found politically offensive, we’d be declaring a lot of people to be bigots or to have transphobic beliefs and attitudes when we actually have good reason to believe they do not.

(“transgendered” – case in point)

No, you’re not.

You think you are, but you’re not.

:smiley:

I think you were supposed to say that I’m not a REAL Republican :wink:

And since when is calling someone a liar hate speech? If you stretch the definition of hate speech to such idiotic lengths then you’re cheapening the real thing. When everything is hate speech then nothing is hate speech. To disagree with someone is not to hate them although you seem to be of a different opinion.

You aren’t lying if you really believe it to be true. For a (possibly offensive) analogy, there are people who genuinely, deeply believe that the government (or Kenneth, or whoever) is using machines (possibly embedded in their teeth) to monitor their thoughts and actions. Telling them that they are wrong deeply hurts them–does that make it a “hate crime?” Someone who says that they don’t believe that trans people are truly the opposite of their biological sex are saying the same thing–that the trans person really believes it, but that it doesn’t match reality. “Mental ilness” and “really are validly the opposite sex” are equally valid social stances–one is just more polite than the other. And I don’t think that being tactless should be classifed as a hate crime.

never mind, found the answer

Don’t suppress me.

I largely agree with this, this is also part of what I meant by “one of the good ones”.

She basically cherry picks some of the spiciest takes to rail against them (like Rachel McKinnon’s “it’s transphobic to not be pan” is just… I do not know a single trans person who hasn’t thought that was the stupidest take). She also exposes a lot of weird niche trans inside baseball arguments that are already contentious within the trans community, but in a deliberately warped way to make you think she’s some refugee from all those ~crazy ones~ and she’s just here to tell you, yes you, dear cis reader that “you’re not imagining things, these trans people are out of control! (Except me. I’m good. Love me)”

Also like… just look at the source of the article. Within the recommended articles there are at least three other articles about The Trans Menace, or just making fun of trans people in some way. She’s a games journalist who’s made a side career on writing for right wing sites selling out other trans people for respect points. (Note this isn’t me calling her dishonest, per se, I’m sure she believes a lot of this. But it is in effect what she’s doing)

Also, I wanna be clear so I’m not guilty of the same thing: the person who got mad at me for not putting a space is a consummate asshole who is way too high strung about just about everything and will bully you if you don’t share whatever weird-ass niche opinion she has. Like it’s not wrong to say “some trans people get really mad about it”, but it’s not that many, and it’s mostly just a shibboleth, most people won’t freak out… just be slightly cautious because it’s clear the people talking aren’t well versed in the lingo.

It’s like someone saying “the blacks”. They’re not necessarily a giant bigot against black people, but it’s so clear that the language of racial discourse has left them behind that you’re worried about where it’s going.