I think I see what Sauron is saying, from the Baptist perspective – “St. Swithin’s Baptist Church, Birmingham” (since he hasn’t named it, let’s use that) is the final word on what its own policies are. It’s chosen to remain part of the Alabama Baptist Convention (or whatever the state group’s name is) and the SBC, for the duration, to continue “working from within” to combat the attitude of the hardliners. Take it from a couple who had done likewise for 20 years in an Episcopal Church parish with a less-than-accepting attitude – that’s a tough row to hoe, and I for one am proud of Sauron and Aries28 for fighting that battle. A suggestion: urge your pastor to preach a sermon on the truth about gay people and what Scripture calls us to do for them.
And to support their contention that the SBC, for all its homophobic attitudes, does good: Back in 1999, Hurricane Floyd laid waste the eastern third of North Carolina. Aside from a couple of seaside cities that knew how to deal with such storms, there was flooding almost everywhere, destroying or trashing homes and businesses, leaving people homeless and unemployed. Our church sent what help we could, the business I was working for had special drives and a fund administered by the comptroller (whose family was deeply involved in the rescue-and-recovery work) where our contributions were matched from company funds. And the evil old SBC sent in massive amounts of money, goods, and volunteers – more than anyone else except FEMA of the first two, and more volunteers than anybody else.
Does this excuse their homophobic attitude? No. Does it say they’re human, with both good and bad in them? IMHO, absolutely.
I want to close this post with a line from Abraham Lincoln: “The best way to destroy your enemy is to make him your friend.”
Why is where you were born relevant at all? As you noted, you can change your citizenship. Just because it isn’t as easy to change as a church membership doesn’t mean it can’t be done.
FTR, you said:
Tell me how my example earlier is different from what you’re saying. A whole host of civil rights are only available to American citizens. However, by your statement above, one has no choice of nationality. If I am born an American, someone else would be born, say, Mexican. Following your example to its logical conclusion, said Mexican could never become an American citizen.
So it’s okay to make blanket statements about an entire group of people based on your perception of the majority? Congratulations. You just justified stereotyping.
Sauron, I’m certainly not contesting your right to belong to church of your choice.
However, when all’s said and done, I’m curious as to how you reconcile the SBC stance that homosexuality is an abomination with your more liberal and compassionate views.
I’m not being snarky but do you just get to pick and chose which church doctrine you want to follow?
Okay, it’s clear to me that you would rather hang onto your personal feelings of being offended instead of trying to see it from an objective point of view, so I’m done. Thank you for the discussion and have a good day.
Sauron and Aries28, I’m assuming that your church is affiliated with the SBC. If your church disagrees with the SBC on this and the majority of its other issues, and if the actions of the SBC have little or no effect on the day-to-day operations of your church, then your church should end its affiliation with the SBC. Period. The SBC is a cancer on the body of Christ and your willing acquiescence to its rules, no matter how perfunctory it may be, and the silence of your church on the issues with which you gravely differ from the SBC, is doing nothing to stop that cancer from spreading.
Imagine if all the churches like yours who think the SBC is full of it and ignore its declarations actually spoke up. Imagine the shockwaves that would send through the community of the church and the power of positive change that would be unleashed by that act.
Now imagine that churches who disagree with the SBC do nothing to express that disagreement. Oh wait, no need to imagine it, we see the result of your silence now.
You have a duty as Christians to speak against injustice, even, and especially, when it is perpetrated in the name of your loving Saviour.
Even if you don’t believe that your Christian duty compels you to speak and act against the SBC, doesn’t it disgust you that the lunatic fringe controls your denomination? Aren’t you tired of dealing with the kind of shitstorms that their nastiness kicks up, this thread for example?
Speak up. Act up. Take the power away from the evil men who pervert your faith to promote their hateful ways. Otherwise, shut the fuck up when people attack your church for the actions of your SBC leaders because you’re not doing fuck-all to stop them.
No, I’m trying to see where you’re coming from, and I honestly don’t see it. If you have a valid point, I don’t think you’re explaining it very well.
jlzania, as I said before, the topic of homosexuality rarely, if ever, comes up in my church. I know that my Sunday School teacher and his wife are friends with a couple of gay people, but when they’re mentioned, we don’t talk about them as gays, we talk about them as people.
As I also said, numerous times, our church tends to focus more on the forgiveness and serving aspect of the Baptist faith, rather than the condemnation and hellfire aspect. In fact, every church I’ve ever belonged to (all Southern Baptist) followed that doctrine. It’s what Jesus taught, after all.
I seriously doubt I’d ever find a church that matched my personal philosophy exactly. For that reason, I’m willing to overlook some aspects of a church’s teachings if the main ones fall in line with what I believe. For example, one of the things our pastor does believe is that Jesus didn’t drink wine, he drank grape juice. Well, I firmly believe Jesus drank wine. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna change churches, though.
Umm…Hi? Have you read my earlier posts where we DO speak up and will continue to speak up?
Kind of example…what if I had a bad experience in dealing with a gay person…ONE single gay person…then I came into the pit and just insulted the entire community based on the actions of that one person? I would be piled on and probably banned.
And yes, I understand we are talking about governing authority and the like and not individuals but that was the best example I had for the time being…
Yes…the SBC has some fucked up ideas and attitudes. Doesn’t mean all Southern Baptists or people affiliated with the SBC are thinking the same fucked up things and it doesn’t mean we aren’t trying to change the leadership.
Once again, my illustration of an American citizen being reviled for the policies of the American government addresses this. I might disagree with a policy the government enacts, yet by your standards someone from Canada, say, is perfectly free to lambast me over that policy, and I’m not allowed to say anything in my own defense.
Folks, you seem to be forgetting that Aries28 and I are on your side. There are approximately 4,200 churches that belong to the Southern Baptist Convention, representing somewhere in the neighborhood of 16.5 million people. It will take some time to enact major policy changes … although, I repeat, that is beginning to happen. (If you honestly see no difference between Fred Phelps’ message, which would probably have been acceptable to the SBC 40 years ago, and what they announced this week, then we have absolutely no common ground for communication.)
Well, I want to commend Sauron and Aries28 for thinking about what’s been said here and for reviewing the attitudes of their church. They are on our side, after all.
That assertion always makes me giggle. My ex had this conversation with some people who were trying to convert him to the SBC from his happy blend of Episcopal Discordianism:
“Alcohol is Satan’s evil.”
“But didn’t Christ turn water into wine?”
“Oh, wine was non-alcoholic then.”
“So…Christ turned it into…”
“Grape juice.”
“You’re telling me that Christ’s first miracle was to turn water into Kool-Aid?”
And I want to let you know that despite what you might think or feel, you are by no means alone in your beliefs. Hell, if two inbred Southern Baptist white-trash rednecks from Alabammy can defend your right to love whoever you want, there’s gotta be some hope somewhere, right?
Thank you Gobear and we really do wish you the best.
And might I add… Sauron is a tough cookie sometimes but he really is a compassionate person and stands up for things that are unjust.
He is pretty steadfast in his arguements and he won’t be swayed until you CONVINCE him rather than just spout off. He wants valid reasons to sway his opinion on things not “just because”
I suppose that’s where we differ.
To me, the concept that loving some one of the same sex was a mortal sin would preclude my participation in any church that espoused that belief.
It would be too large a philosophical gap for me to be able to ignore it. Period. Not negotiable.
The “we just don’t discuss the issue” wouldn’t be acceptable.
However, I can also fully appreciate the fact that you and Aries28 are trying to change the SBC from within.
I hope that you don’t think that I’m trying to browbeat either of you as you seem to be lovely, compassionate people.
However, may I raise a hypothetical question?
What if SBC leadership continues to revile homosexuality as a sin?
What you will you do then?
See, I just don’t see the boys at the top ever changing their stance on this issue.
Isn’t the Southern Baptist Convention supposed to represent the religious views of Southern Baptists? Isn’t that the point? And isn’t it therefore valid to take them to task for those views, especially in this case?
And only an individual can decide for themselves if they are committing a sin of complicity by giving their silent assent to something they know is wrong.
Okay…fair enough jltzania I’ll post MY own personal beliefs and probably be ripped to shreds but I’m a big girl…I can take it. And this probably isn’t related to the OP but I did want to respond…
I think treating someone poorly because they are gay is wrong. I think beating someone up or keying their car or yelling things at them or God forbid killing them because they are gay is wrong.
I think not giving a gay couple insurance and the same benefits I am entitled to is wrong.
I think standing outside of any establishment with signs spouting hate and saying gay people are going to hell is wrong.
I don’t think it is my place to tell anyone on this earth who they have the right to love or not love. I am not their judge and jury.
Now here is where I am confused lately…and please understand…it is because I was raised in a SB church my entire life and I have never thought to question it…but I am starting to…
I have always been taught that homosexuality itself is wrong. A sin. Period.
My parents would have absolutely gone nuts if they ever thought I treated someone different than the way I want to be treated because of their race, beliefs, sex, who they loved, etc. I was always taught tolerance. Period.
But I was always taught that being homosexual was wrong.
I am evaluating this belief and I haven’t decided one way or another yet what I think now. But I’m rethinking why I have always believed it. Does that count for anything?
I STILL think the statement of the SBC that started this original post was riduculous and wrong. I don’t agree with it.
As I stated above I don’t agree with hatred towards ANY group. Period.
Some famous guy once said “Let he who is without sin, cast the first stone.” God knows I’ve done more than enough stuff in my lifetime to lose any credibility I might have ever had regarding moral superiority. There ain’t a beam in my eye – there’s an entire Amish barn. And a new one is being raised most every day.
Is homosexuality a sin? I dunno. It ain’t my call. But I see no reason to condemn people for it. There’s precious little love in the world as it is; we don’t need to exempt and demonize perfectly valid avenues for its expression (in my opinion). Regardless, my faith believes sin is sin, and comes between me and God. There aren’t levels of sin – for example, if I murdered someone, I would experience the same separation from God as if I’d told my wife a white lie about the way she looks in tight pants. (Not that I did! You look great, honey! I swear! Smokin’!)
We believe that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We also believe that faith, not works, is the way to Heaven. In other words, even if homosexual behavior is a sin, so what? It’s no worse than anything else I have ever done, or will continue to do. Kinda ridiculous for me to point and cry “Sinner!” when God is looking at me and saying “Oh, really? Let’s look over what you’ve been up to in the last couple of days …”
I would like to see my church and my faith move more toward what I believe Jesus taught – love, compassion, forgiveness, service. I think He is often frustrated by the way his message has been perverted.
Esprix: Think of the SBC as a club, if you will. Churches belong to it. But that doesn’t mean that every church in the club agrees completely with the club rules. So no, it’s not right to say that 16.5 million people agree completely with everything the SBC says.
