And what the fuck is wrong with the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence?
Okay, a question for those people who are Southern Baptists:
Just what are you doing, apart from posting here, to save face on behalf of those of your faith who are attempting to “save” gay people from … themselves?
Where’s the MCC when you need them?
To demonstrate that being a good christian has nothing to do with who you’re attracted to and everything to do with being a decent human being who acts out of love and not fear, hatred and anger.
Did you miss the part where we said our church doesn’t support the majority of the SBC’s beliefs?
And I don’t believe that because I might disagree with something that the answer is to just leave. Why not stay and try to argue your point and make changes within? Why just up and leave something because I might disagree with some of it?
Sauron and I actually discussed this late into the night last night. We DO disagree with some of our own church’s policies and we are vocal about that. Trust me. However, we enjoy the small Sunday School class we attend (mostly very liberal members). We have made some good friends there. Our children enjoy their classes and have made some good friends. The church as a whole has been very supportive of us during some really rough times. We both teach a class of 4th and 5th students every Sunday morning and I think we have a great influence on them and I try to preach to them constantly about loving everyone REGARDLESS of if they appear different, or believe different, or think differently than you.
And it’s that type of generalization that upset some of us to begin with.
Baptism is a big part of our faith and to me the above statement, even in jest, is offensive.
Just as I would find a joke bashing gay people or black people or any other group offensive.
Since the question of whether or not I try to make changes or sit back and just let things slide without saying anything came up…I can assure you I do take active stands ANYWHERE I see bigotry.
I’m in the South and there are still many racial stereotypes here. I work one day a week at an inner city school where I am the only white person in the entire school. I have bought uniforms for these kids because theirs were so threadbear you could see through them. I love them like I love my own children. Each week I talk to them about tolerance and loving someone for WHO they are and nothing else.
I’ve worked in missions with homeless people, people dying from AIDS, people who society forgot and I have exposed my children also so they understand how fortunate they are.
Senior issues are important to me. I’ve worked in an adult day care where these poor people couldn’t function and their family just wanted to get rid of them for the day. I’ve danced with them, talked to them, taken them to the restroom when they couldn’t make it by themselves, and listened to their stories about when they were young.
Okay…I’m rambling…but my point is…I’m not somebody who is going to SAY I believe something then sit back and do nothing about it. I am a very compassionate person.
Yes…I am a Southern Baptist. Yes…I disagree with the majority of the SBC. And I am doing things (even if they seem small) to make sure my voice is heard.
And Gobear…I am so sorry to hear that your sister and your family are having to go through this. I hope everything works out for the very best and you will be in my prayers.
gobear, I already posted in your other thread, but I really am sending good thoughts your way.
If they’re the ones I’m thinking of-and correct me if I’m wrong-weren’t they going outside convents and Catholic schools, throwing around condoms, dressing up like nuns and priests and making out? I can support their cause, without supporting their methods.
My heart’s out to you, gobear, and to your sister. Best wishes!
As for the rest of y’all, I’m in too good a mood this morning to complain. I get to move into my new apartment, yay…
To all the good, caring, non-homophobic Southern Baptists: leave the church and find one you agree with, or work very very hard to change your church from within.
No one said it’s always “easy” to do the right thing. You may lose some friends and some convenient church-related services—but you will gain the satisfaction of helping to overthrow evil, and you will be teaching your children good morals.
Eve To begin…thank you for posting this originally. It has definitely sparked a lot of thought and that is always a good thing IMO. I know, I for one have given this much thought and continue to do so.
I strongly think one should try to change that they don’t agree with rather than just abandon it.
I hate racism but I’m not going to move from the South just because it is here. I love the South and I think there are good things about it.
Same deal…I disagree completely with homophobic ideas in the Baptist church but I love my church and I think there are also good things about it.
Now… :
: for everybody.
I swear by all that is good and holy, some of you people have the most closed minds I have ever seen.
For the umpteenth frickin’ time: What the SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION decides in their annual meeting rarely has any impact on what MY CHURCH does. As has been noted earlier, the SBC is seeing something of an exodus from its ranks by churches who don’t agree with some of its hard-line stances. (And regardless of what Homebrew and others might think, the SBC has attempted to ameliorate some of its policies, but in a very haphazard and ineffective way.)
presidebt, I think you might be confusing nationality with ethnicity. I’m born an American, so I’m always an American? It IS possible to become a citizen of another country, you know. Or are you about to deny civil rights to a whole host of immigrants because they weren’t “born American”?
macabresoul (and others): You seem to have a distorted view of the type of worship we enjoy. Contrary to what you seem to believe, our worship services don’t consist of bonfires and pitchforks, during which we’re exhorted to “kill the gay monsters” until we’re worked into a frenzy and sally forth into the unsuspecting populace. I honestly can’t tell you the last time a homosexual issue was part of any discussion or sermon I’ve heard at our church. Isn’t that what gobear and others want? The freedom to live their lives without interference from others? Well, I and members of my church haven’t done anything to interfere with him. And yet we’re slammed, even while we’re saying we agree with his position.
Show me where I’ve said I don’t support the cause espoused by gobear. And you want to talk bigotry and/or prejudice? Take a look at some of these gems, posted in this very thread:
“Look, I don’t tell Souther Baptists to pick up the beer cans around their trailers, get library cards, or stop wearing polyester, so why do they feel they have the right to tell me how to live? Haven’t those shitstains ever heard of “live and let live”?”
“There is no difference between these southern Batizts and fred phelps.”
“oh well, let me give a nice warm fuck you to the southern babtizts (I Think Babtizts sounds better and describes thier beliefs better.)”
“IMO, the Southern Baptists are evil people, as bad in their way as Nazis or the Taliban.”
“The problem with Southern Baptists is that they don’t hold them under water long enough.”
Now, take a good long look at those quotes. All of these were made in this thread, and the vast majority were made AFTER various posters started calling folks on the blatant stereotyping that is entailed in these quotes. Tell me why I should support anyone who says stuff like that, if I self-identify as a Southern Baptist. Try this: Pick any group you self-identify with. Now replace “Southern Baptist” in those quotes with the name of your group.
(gobear, my apologies on including one or more of your quotes in here – you’ve already apologized for that. I’m trying to give examples of what angered me in the first place, not rake you over the coals again.)
One last time: The SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION may make an announcement about a policy or a campaign, but it rarely, if ever has any effect on ME or MY CHURCH. My church does a ton of good work in my community – we run a food closet, we volunteer at soup kitchens, we operate a low-cost after-school care program, we have a Meals on Wheels ministry for shut-ins, we run a ministry for Spanish-speaking people, and a host of other things that make a huge difference in the lives of people in this community. For people on a message board to arbitrarily decide I and the members of my church are evil shitstains, equal to Fred Phelps, Nazis or the Taliban, and worthy of drowning … well, that’s asinine to the extreme.
And I got so concerned over my own little cause that I completely forgot that which was vastly more important. gobear, I am truly sorry to hear about your sister. If you do not object, I would like to add her to the prayer list in our Sunday School class.
“I honestly can’t tell you the last time a homosexual issue was part of any discussion or sermon I’ve heard at our church.”
—Well, it’s about bloody well time it was, then. Why doesn’t someone stand up and say, “Does this church agree with the hateful anti-gay proclamations passed by the SBC? If not, why don’t we do something about it? If so, good-bye!”
You’re right, Eve. Because my church has made no official pronouncements on its stance regarding the SBC’s initiatives regarding gays, my wife and I should stop volunteering our time and money to support all the good things the church does. We should stop teaching fourth- and fifth-grade children a message of tolerance and understanding in our Sunday School class. We should stop helping the poor, the hungry, and the homeless in our community.
Because, after all, that’s what Jesus taught, right?
I agree with gobear’s ire, but I refuse to make a church’s stance on homosexuality my only criteria for joining.
Sooooo, there are no other churches anywhere in Birmingham?
There are tons of churches in Birmingham (or in the suburbs, which is where I live). As I said, I see no reason to switch from the one I belong to now.
I’m not saying any such thing, though it’s telling to me that you would twist what I say to fit with your anger. You are right about one thing, you can change your citizenship, but that entails a little more than walking down the street to a better, more liberating church. And my comment stands. You have no choice where you are born, but you have every choice in where you worship.
Judging by your wife’s post, it seems that your family might challenge your religious leaders, and good on ya for it. Now if you guys could organize a group of churches to go to the Conventions and shout down your evil, phobic leaders, I for one would appreciate it.
And you think there were no good Nazis? No person in the Taliban hated what they were doing? I would bet there was a small group in each of these larger groups who hated what the larger group was doing. There are countless stories of individual Nazis going against the leadership and helping people to get out, to get away, gave them food, etc. But we still refer to “Nazis” as evil. You do so yourself. Why is it so hard for you to make the jump here? Because you’re personally offended? Now that’s asinine–not seeing what should be patently obvious.
Anyway, I don’t want to dump on you, I’m just saying you’re getting the hair on the back of your neck raised at the wrong people. Good luck in your endeavor to change your Convention.
Because I don’t think the issue of gay rights is really that important to most people. So, they’re not going to do something drastic like that over something they really don’t care about.
Boy, I hope you have problems with more than just the homosexuality issue within the SBC. They don’t just dump on homosexuals, you know.
I agree. I intend to bring up the topic of the OP this Sunday to hear the response. I want to know if my church thinks it is logical or right to befriend someone solely for the purpose of “liberating” them.
If my church says they support such a thing then I can assure you I won’t be a member there any longer.
As I said, I have thought a lot since this post started yesterday. I need to educate myself further about EXACTLY what MY church stands by in regards to the SBC. I need to educate myself about how much of the money I give to my church goes to the SBC. These are all things I need to do and will.
There have been many questions raised in my mind over the last 24 hours regarding why I believe what I believe and I will try to seek out answers to those questions from various resources.
BUT (and this is for everybody) if the posting had continued as it was late yesterday I might not have been so receptive to challenging my belief system. I might have closed out some of your valid arguements because the tone of the posting took on one of those “me against you” in a battle of personal insults things that I HATE about the pit.
I can take being told you don’t agree with me. I want to know WHY…not for you to insult me, my family, my dog, my mother, etc.
In fact, Exprix has a thread going on right now related to this very topic.