Woman caught on camera stealing toy from baby's grave.

[Knuffle]

http://www.10tv.com/content/stories/2014/04/24/ontario-woman-accused-of-gravesite-theft-turns-herself-in.html

Sorry. Non-mobile link to the local news story.

Her explanation that there was a dog around doesn’t make much sense to me.

I read in a news story yesterday that the duck was tossed in a tree.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Simplicio

Vandalizing grave-sites is illegal. I’d be pretty surprised if removing things from them without permission of the owners didn’t fall under that heading.

And in anycase, property left at a gravesite pretty clearly isn’t “abandoned”.

If that’s the case, then why aren’t the people who remove all the dead flowers, old toys and mementos, etc. from grave sites arrested and charged with theft?

At what point is something considered abandoned?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@zoid

Oh I see, now you get to decide how I use my property and if you don’t agree you’re entitled to take it.
That’s a much better argument.

Do you leave your money in a pile in the street? Why not? Is it because you are afraid that if you left something unattended in public, someone would think they could just pick it up and keep it? Why are they wrong to think that?

[zoid]

In fact they have a responsibility to turn it in and not keep it. And clearly leaving my car on the street is the same as a pile of cash, right?
Next time you see a bundle of cash fall out the back of an armored truck go ahead and keep it and see how that works out for you.

[Simplicio]

@Snowboarder_Bo

If that’s the case, then why aren’t the people who remove all the dead flowers, old toys and mementos, etc. from grave sites arrested and charged with theft?

I assume when you bury someone in a plot, the paperwork includes fineprint regarding what the staff will and won’t do to keep the site clean.

At what point is something considered abandoned?

Dunno, but if its on private property, and was very clearly put there to serve a purpose, I can’t really think of any definition of “abandoned” that would qualify.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@zoid

In fact they have a responsibility to turn it in and not keep it. And clearly leaving my car on the street is the same as a pile of cash, right?
Next time you see a bundle of cash fall out the back of an armored truck go ahead and keep it and see how that works out for you.

It would be hard (like, impossibly hard) to make the argument that a pile of cash I saw fall out of truck was abandoned.

But a pile of cash that was sitting in the street in front of my house one morning? Yeah, I could make that argument. I mean, if it has value to someone, why would they leave it sitting in the street unattended?

[zoid]

@Snowboarder_Bo

It would be hard (like, impossibly hard) to make the argument that a pile of cash I saw fall out of truck was abandoned.

But a pile of cash that was sitting in the street in front of my house one morning? Yeah, I could make that argument. I mean, if it has value to someone, why would they leave it sitting in the street unattended?

Exactly, which is why it was most likely not abandoned and there is a responsibility on the finder to turn it in.
This has taken an absurd turn indeed. The item in question in the OP was clearly not abandoned and held great value to the person who placed it, and the woman apparently trespassed onto private property to retrieve it in a manner clearly not intended by it’s owner. There is no logical way to defend her actions.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Simplicio

I assume when you bury someone in a plot, the paperwork includes fineprint regarding what the staff will and won’t do to keep the site clean.

I’m trying not to assume anything and just deal with actuals. I’ve never had to personally supervise or initiate a funeral, so I have no idea if there’s a perpetuity contract for upkeep or what. Surely we have someone here who’s had to do this; perhaps they’ll tell us about their own experiences.

@Simplicio

Dunno, but if its on private property, and was very clearly put there to serve a purpose, I can’t really think of any definition of “abandoned” that would qualify.

Aye, on private property I agree. I think it would be absurdly easy to characterize the stuffed animal as a decoration and thus it has a purpose and should not have been removed. Is this cemetary private property?

And is it actually (i.e. legally) vandalizing a gravesite to remove something placed at the grave, as opposed to disturbing the grave itself?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@zoid

Exactly, which is why it was most likely not abandoned and there is a responsibility on the finder to turn it in.
This has taken an absurd turn indeed. The item in question in the OP was clearly not abandoned and held great value to the person who placed it, and the woman apparently trespassed onto private property to retrieve it in a manner clearly not intended by it’s owner. There is no logical way to defend her actions.

I’m not now nor have I ever been defending her actions. IF you feel I have been, please feel free to quote me.

What was it you read that makes you think she “apparently trespassed onto private property”?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@phouka

Well, the item was placed with purpose at a location that the item owner had specific rights to. Do people own grave plots anymore? Or lease or rent them? I mean, the mother of that child had to have paid some amount of money in order to have her child buried there, and there’s got to be some sort of fee for upkeep. It’s not like a roadside memorial where there’s no legal, contractual relationship between the bereaved and the physical location.

I imagine the cemetery also has a policy regarding items left on graves. Perhaps they collect them after a set amount of time has passed or twice a week or what have you. Once an item is placed on the grave, if it doesn’t belong to the bereaved, then it must belong to the cemetery.

Somehow I missed this post earlier. Good response, but I see you have some of the same questions that I do about ownership, maintenance, etc. It seems that there’s a lot that many (most?) of us simply don’t know about cemeteries and graves and the law with respect to them both.

[zoid]

I’ll admit I’m assuming that if she were an employee of the cemetery, had been there in a legitimate capacity, and acted as an agent of the cemetery owners in removing the item that there would be no news report and subsequent arrest.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@zoid

Exactly, which is why it was most likely not abandoned and there is a responsibility on the finder to turn it in.

Is there a legal responsibility to turn it in, tho, or just a moral and ethical obligation?

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@zoid

I’ll admit I’m assuming that if she were an employee of the cemetery, had been there in a legitimate capacity, and acted as an agent of the cemetery owners in removing the item that there would be no news report and subsequent arrest.

I doubt there is anyone here who would argue differently.

[zoid]

@Snowboarder_Bo

I doubt there is anyone here who would argue differently.

OK, now I’m confused - I was responding to this:

@Snowboarder_Bo

What was it you read that makes you think she “apparently trespassed onto private property”?

[zoid]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Is there a legal responsibility to turn it in, tho, or just a moral and ethical obligation?

I’ll have to leave a definitive legal response to the lawyers on the board.

[aceplace57]

I’m glad the woman has been identified. It will just be a slap on the wrist if they choose to charge her. Stealing a kid’s toy isn’t the crime of the century. Hopefully the public embarrassment will teach the woman a lesson.

People should be able to leave small, inexpensive items on a grave without anyone disturbing them. The family should replace the item after it gets weathered and dirty. Or if the family doesn’t then a cemetery worker may need to clean up the area.

[levdrakon]

@dracoi

The family left their duck in a symbolic gesture. Emotional fulfillment for them. World is now +1.

Child enjoys the duck. Emotional fulfillment for child. World is now an additional +1.

The only negative in this equation is when 1) family finds out about the “theft” (because let’s be honest, the presence of the duck after they leave has no actual impact on them whatsoever) and 2) family decides that the duck is better used in memory of a dead person than to the benefit of a living person. So: family is selfish, world -1.

Which, in my equation, still leaves the world at +1, thanks to a child enjoying the duck.

And before you go on about the family’s feelings any further, you tell me where that duck was going to end up. As another poster said, it was either going to be thrown in the garbage or chewed up by a lawnmower. If they think about it logically, that family KNOWS the duck doesn’t benefit their child and they KNOW it will be disposed of with no ceremony. I’m sorry that the blinders have been taken off of their little world of denial and selfishness, but anyone who thinks the world needs more denial and selfishness is clearly using different math than I am.

Cemeteries have policies about items left at graves and a groundskeeper goes around and removes things if needed. That’s up to the cemetery and relatives, not petty thieves. Here’s an example.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@zoid

OK, now I’m confused - I was responding to this:

Ah ok, sorry I misinterpreted that. However, since she has not been charged with trespassing, what makes you think she was “apparently trespasssing”?

I mean, thus far, your post was the first time I saw the word used with respect to what we’re discussing, so I’m curious where you got the idea.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@levdrakon

Cemeteries have policies about items left at graves and a groundskeeper goes around and removes things if needed. That’s up to the cemetery and relatives, not petty thieves. Here’s an example.

Thanks, levdrakon! I note that Holy Cross Cemetery does not permit anything to be left near or at graves other than flowers. I wonder how prevalent such a policy is? I’m going to guess “fairly” to “common”, but it’s just a guess.

[Synister1]

I worked at a cemetery back in the 70’s, (great summer job), and the rules were pretty much identical to the ones used by the Holy Cross Cemetery in the link posted by levdrakon.
We would try to be accommodating, but when it came time to mow the lawns, everything had to go.