That was more or less the consensus of the piece that I got from a discussion of the book on CBC radio last weekend. She doesn’t try to understand viewpoints different from her own, but mock and dismiss them.
But if I understand it right, a trans person already feels much more like the opposite sex and has for some time. Not that being accepted that way is an easy thing. This woman doesn’t appear to feel like the opposite sex. She just tried to play the part with (it appears) a limited degree of success. I get the feeling she wasn’t very comfortable in that role and wasn’t able to get past her own prejudices for that very reason.
Anyway, still not certain I understand how her experience is seen (by some) as having been given a taste of her own medicine. 
Having read the book I can tell you that is not what happens.
I agree with you. While it is possible that this situation made her reconsider her views on transsexuality, it is also entirely possible that it only further entrenched her view (ie, it made me crazy so they must be crazy to do such a thing). While I hope that she did change her mind on that issue, I won’t be holding my breath.
And I don’t understand how you don’t understand it.
Lemme give this a shot… in her mind, she’s a woman. She knows she’s a woman and she always has known. But while she’s being “Ned”, people are treating her like she’s a man. She has to dress and look and act and respond like a man. She can’t be feminine, ever, or she’ll blow her cover. And (evidently) she hates it! It drives her nuts!
Now imagine that she couldn’t switch back to Norah anytime she wanted, that she didn’t have any friends who were in on the secret and knew she was really Norah, and that no matter how hard she tried, there would always be people who would insist she was Ned and would always be Ned… and that merely wanting to be treated as Norah made her some kind of dangerous freak.
Does that make any sense?
Yeah, welcome to my world.
Thanks, elfbabe and matt, you both explained it really well.
No, it’s the other way around. Not transitioning (i.e. being permanently forced to masquerade as male) is liable to drive me crazy, just as it affected her. Transitioning is the road to mental health and happiness for me. “Transitioning” back to being her real female self allowed Vincent to recover sanity. This is the same reason I am transitioning to my female self.
Speaking of which: Today is finally my first endocrinology appointment! I’m so happy! It’s the beginning of spring, I’ve recovered my health, and my life is moving forward at last.
What made Vincent crazy was, as QuickSilver stated,
Exactly. Pretending to be a man bothers me in the same way.
The idea of the book doesn’t look stupid to me. Actually, I think it was a good idea, “how the other half lives,” in the best tradition of American muckraking investigative journalism, because it provides a fresh perspective on gender identity. The timing is right for the year 2006, now that transgender issues are coming to public awareness.
I can only go by the reviews I’ve read, but the impression I got was that Vincent went in to scoff at men, and came out of it with new empathy and appreciation for the male gender and the problems they get from living in it.
I should probably get that book and read it, because I experienced a revelation just reading quotes from it in the reviews. This was the first time in my life I’d ever actually got a glimmer of understanding what being male is all about. I’d grown up in the male role, but never got what made most guys hold such attitudes and behave such ways. I sensed they shared some unspoken understanding what maleness was all about, but I never got it. No explanations of it ever meant much to me either. When Vincent tried on that gender role and reported back from a female point of view, suddenly the light dawned. For the first time, I began to get it. (I still don’t want it, but understanding is always good.) It helps me to see men more as just people like myself.
Lemme try it a different way…
(And for the record, I acknowledge that I am not well informed on the trans culture.)
As I understand it (and perhaps I’m using far to broad a generalityzation) a trans feels like the gender he/she is not. In other words, they want to be accepted for the gender they “feel” they are or were meant to be instead of who they actually are according to their chromosomes. Yes?
The author is not a trans. Doesn’t want to be a man IRL. She just put on a suit and makeup to clandestinly uncover “The Mysterious World of Men”. :rolleyes: So no matter her intentions, she was living a lie as a “man”. That’s got to play some serious game on your persona to lie on such a massive and fundamental scale. Is it any wonder an average person would have some issues in trying to keep up this kind of charrade for very long?
As for a real trans, (which is where I definitely step out of my depth) he/she actually feels and wants to be the person of the opposite sex but have social (internal and external) pressure to deal with. It’s an issue of acceptance by the world because they actually “feel” like the gender they “dress” to be. They are not trying to live a lie. They are trying to correct what must seem like nature’s cruel joke.
See the difference?
Yeah, you get it. A trans person, for example, a mtf, feels like living as a male is incorrect and tries to live as a female because that’s how she really feels inside. They have issues with trying to get others to accept their internal view of themselves.
The author in the story passed as a man and while she had problems, unless it says what those problems were from, we are only speculating about their cause at this point. While it is possible that she was mentally harmed by trying to live as a guy, if she already had a fluid gender identity, it is possible that she wasn’t and was more harmed by trying to live a lie.
What do you mean it’s the other way around? I know about transsexuality and I know that you feel you have a female mind and that you are working to change your body to fit your mind. This wasn’t the case with this women, her experience was differen than yours. She will only accept what you say if she accepts that you are correct that you have a female mind inside a male body. If she doesn’t then no lessons have been learned.
I’ve not read the book, but I may grab it from the library if it’s available.
Whenever I see an example of this type of “journalism” (the race-switch, the ever-popular lady-in-a-fat-suit, or the gender switch), I have to wonder if people aren’t aware and having the person on a little bit.
With the amount of time spent with the person, I woudl find it very difficult to believe that non-verbal cues wouldn’t tell the whole story. I’m sure it will be very unpopular to say here, but I refuse to believe the women pursued by Ned weren’t aware of the con. Given time, I don’t think anyone short of a Gielgud (hyperbolic, here…not insinuating that Sir was a transgendered) coudl pull that off for any amount of time (the full deception).
I forget who said it, but the whole issue about the well-educated relating to the “blue collar” is crap. I truly believe that people interact onthe basis of their personalities, given a chance to interact honestly. The thought that an educated person woudl be a fish out of water at a “blue collar” bowling alley does both perceived sides of the discussion a disservice.
-Cem
sort of reminds me of one of the segments of the parody chat show station "K-CHAT"
Amy: This is K-Chat, welcome back to the show. I’m Amy Sheckenhausen and next
up, we’re going to be interviewing someone who’s got a lot to say for
herself. A woman weho pretended to be a man and wrote a book about it. I
haven’t read it, but I’m going to pretned I did. She’s professer of
Anthrososiology and womens studies at the University of Vice City. And her
name’s Micheala Crapis. Crapadis. Micheala. Michelle. Hi, welcome to
K-Chat.
Michelle: hello.
Amy: Hi, so michelle, you’re a teacher?
Michelle: If you mean professor yes i have a doctorate, teachers are homely
women who make minimum wage to keep the teenage boys off the streets
during the day. I am very intelligent and I’d rather talk about that.
I’m trying to sell my book
Amy: Ok, now it says here that you wanted to be a man so much, you dressed up
like one.
Michelle: Well that’s a load of crap my dear. more massagenistic propaganda I
hate men, can’t bear them, I think they’re a complete waste of time
and space quite frankly and a disaster for the planet.
Amy: Me too, I just got dumped.
Michelle: Oh well it is unfortunate you measure yourself worth in relation to a
man my dear. look at you. you could be an attractive girl. if you did
some physical labour, cut your hair short, grew out your body hair
and wore boots for example. You mustn’t get sucked into their
hetropatirarcy.
Amy: But I like dating, having someone buy you dinner is great.
Michelle: Well we’ll come back to you and your problems accepting who you
really are. Let’s talk about me a bit more
Amy: Ok, so, tell me about your book. you hate men a lot. and you dressed up
like one, and now you’ve written a book about it. Right?
Michelle: more or less. as i said I’m very itelligent so i don’t expect you to
understand my dear but I’ll try to keep it simple. I’ve always been
fascinated with the world of men, revolted of course, but
fascintated. Now, as an acemdemic I can get paid to write a book
about pretty much anything as long as I give it a complicated title.
Are you with me gourgeous?
Amy: Ooh, I think so.
Michelle: Good, then hold my hand, it helps me think.
Amy: No!
Michelle: Ok, ok, sorry. don’t be so weird. god, everywhere I go just like the
university, won’t let me display my beutiful and sensual woodcuts in
the student comments. It makes me so angry! Where was I?
Amy: You were talking about yourself.
Michelle: Oh of course. The ego is a dangerous thing specially in my case, I’m
a jungeon, anyway, so what I did was dress up like a man and enter
into the man world. I can tell you it was more horrifiing then I
imagined.
Amy: What did you do?
Michelle: Well, the first chapter, I was a roofer. These sexist spend all day
on a roof talking about us amy. I was expected to sit around and talk
about what I had done to women, of course I had to so not to blow my
cover.
Amy: So what’s the name of your book?
Michelle: Yes, as mentioned hitherto, my book has a very very obtuse title.
Being and Seeing, From Freud to the Building Sites, a Woman’s Journey
into the Male Psychy.
Amy: Huh? What?
Michelle: I’ll admit it’s not very catchy. But Academia is not about getting to
the point. It’s about exploration.
Amy: Ok, wow, I’m learning a lot today.
Michelle: So I entered the world of men, in disguise of course, I was dressed
like a man.
Amy: Ok, and you haven’t changed back?
Michelle: What, what did you say?
Amy: You’re still dressed like a man.
Michelle: No I’m not, these are my normal clothes. For gods sake Amy, don’t
fall prey to the patriarichy’s evil fashion schemes!
Amy: Oh, sorry.
Michelle: Anyway, I learned a lot when I was a man. Did you know for example
that during my time as a steelworker in Pittsburg, I learned that men
sometimes speak crudely about women when they are out of earshot. I
was horrified. Or that men regard some women, like you Amy, as mere
sex toys. Things for their amusemtn. Unbelieveable! Or that men
actually find sports intersting! It’s appaling. And they run the
world my pretty, oh yes, they run the world.
Amy: They do?
Michelle: Yeah. Look at Reagan, look at Thatcher, look at Gorbechef, when we
stay home and bake cookies, well screw that sweetheart.
Amy: Yes, I agree.
Michelle: Good, don’t bake a cookie, smash him in the face with a baking tray
instead. he’s a brainless dolt, he’s a man. Did you know men enjoy
looking at pictures of naked women, it’s called pornography, it’s
sick and foul. I’m giving a talk about it this weekend at the women’s
centre. That’s women with a y.
Amy: Hah, I think you spelt it wrong.
Michelle: Are you a woman Amy? Three of the five letters that make up your
description are M. A. N. You’re too dependant on men amy. that’s why
I don’t call myself a woman amy.
Amy: Um, ok.
Michelle: I bet this radio station is owned by a man, white male conservatives
monopolise the media selecting right wing blondes to proporgate
conservatism.
Amy: I don’t have blonde hair.
Michelle: Not yet Amy, not yet. Did you know men drink beer, smoke cigarettes
and wear hats?
Amy: Well, yeah.
Michelle: Heh well, you must have read my book. I’ve discovered a lot of
things. I was also a policeman and an untrained brainsurgeon. They’re
all the same, all women haters.
Amy: Just because they like sports and hats, doesn’t mean they hate women does
it?
Michelle: You self hating fool! Of course it does! The media, meaning you
falsely portrays feminists as bra burners, out dated combat boot
wearing, bad mothers. Why don;t you take your top off right now Amy
huh? Tell them you won’t be censored any more!
Amy: No! I’m getting a little bit freaked out here, ah buh, hit the, buh
Hmm, I might have to read it to find out what that’s all about!!
Tough men have it pretty good in our society. They even get to drop the act and be all cuddly now and then. It’s the rest of us guys that still have a ways to go. :dubious:
Ah, that is exactly the crux. It’s an interesting and beautiful process by which a prejudiced person can grow out of their prejudices and learn to understand others. I felt some hope this experience might have opened Ms. Vincent’s eyes. After all, humans are humans. We have an innate ability to empathize with one another, if the barriers are taken away. In shâ’ Allâh.
Hasn’t this been done before? [cough]Shakespeare[cough]
Very happy to hear that, Johanna, congrats.
Just chiming in a little Nelsoneqsue HA-ha! at Vincent, though I hope she recovers fully from her ordeal…a little wiser than she was before.
I thought you were a witch, not a Muslim?
I speak Arabic.
An Arabic speaking Wiccan trans… :eek:
How’s it feel to know you are the embodiment of the moral majority’s worst nightmare? 
All the time, or only when it’s funny?
My money would be on that you knew your insult through a cutsie link was inappropriate outside of the Pit, yet you did it anyway. Doesn’t look like it gives you much other than a warning. Don’t do this again.