Woman gets a bloody fortune for "emotional distress" after her cat is mauled by a dog

[Greathouse]

@Harborwolf

What I read was an endless screed of “You’re crazy to love your pet that much/You’re an asshole if you don’t love your pet that much” garnished with loads more insults than necessary.

Ok, not to be shitty, but you did realize which forum you’re in, correct? If you’re looking for the Lovefest, it’s over there.

:: points to MPSIMS ::

[alice_in_wonderland]

@PunditLisa

Now my dog thinks I’m nuts.

Uh, Lisa - don’t you mean that your “Fur-Child” thinks your nuts? Try to keep up here.

[Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup]

@alice_in_wonderland

Uh, Lisa - don’t you mean that your “Fur-Child” thinks your nuts? Try to keep up here.

Fur BABY, dammit!
To deny the almighty cutesiness of misplaced and projected need for love is bigotry!

[Excalibre]

@Liberal

[…scratching head…] Aren’t you the one who just excoriated me for being too technical in order to sound smarter than I am? And now when I make a simple comment in a thread about emotional bonds with cats, you join an anal retentive know-it-all in bashing me for being simplistic? Nothing you (or he) wrote contradicts what I said. Never did I say that emotions begin, stay, and end in the limbic system. Never did I say that other parts of the brain are unaffected by emotions. Never did I say that all internal states boil down to the limbic system. You once claimed that I did not read your posts before responding. I suggest that you examine yourself for any similar fault.

Lib, I posted what I did because you made claims that were factually false about the brain. I’m not sure why you did so; I was responding to your assertions, not playing a metagame analyzing your purpose in the argument. I have, and have generally had, a strong commitment to honest debate. So when someone makes counterfactual statements, I try to point it out so the debate can occur in a more honest fashion.

I don’t see why you switched into ad hominems either; it’s interesting that you noted the clarity of my points when they agreed with yours and then suddenly claim I’m bashing you when they didn’t. (Compare, for the sake of fairness, the “bashing” I perpetrated on you with my much, much harsher bashing of PinkMaribou - which, again, you praised.)

I’ve also never bashed you for being too “technical”. I’ve never particularly noticed an attention to technical accuracy in your posts. I’ve pointed out that you try to snow people under with irrelevant references to philosophy and modal logic; I couldn’t make any claim about the technical accuracy of any of those things, because they are far outside my areas of expertise. I simply pointed out that they weren’t relevant to the argument. Perhaps this hijack wasn’t relevant either, but I didn’t pipe up until you angrily reiterated a counterfactual claim about the functioning of the brain.

There’s no harm in being wrong about something - everyone does it; God knows I’ve done my share. It’s a hell of a lot worse to become angry and start lashing out rather that admit it.

@Harborwolf

Excalibre, calling this thread a long debate is stretching things. What I read was an endless screed of “You’re crazy to love your pet that much/You’re an asshole if you don’t love your pet that much” garnished with loads more insults than necessary. If you want to write me off as obnoxious little threadshitter, feel free.

I, along with a number of other people (apparently, given how much posting there was) was enjoying the discussion. Every long thread that occurs (except perhaps the silly game threads in MPSIMS) brings up these histrionic cries of trainwreck. This doesn’t seem to depend upon the quality of the debate: many people simply appear to take offense that others would have long conversations about things they didn’t also want to talk about.

Which is why I think that if a person isn’t willing to read a thread and is disgusted at it, they ought to keep it to themselves. Obviously some of the participants are enjoying it; what purpose does it serve to point out that you aren’t? Read another thread.

[SnakesCatLady]

I’m still stunned that calling my cats “furbabies” causes so many people to wet their pants. I know my cats aren’t human children. I will never have to send them to college, worry when they are out late, bail them out of jail, etc. It is a harmless phrase some of my friends and I use to seperate ourselves from people who acquire a pet “for the kids” then stick it out in the back yard so it can bark incessantly and annoy everyone for blocks.

Don’t take things so seriously, folks! You are not charged for laughter! It won’t hurt your social standing, your credit rating, or your chances of getting into >insert perferred afterlife destination here.<

[Boldface_Type]

@Liberal

Throughout the whole course of this dialog, you’ve basically argued with yourself.

If I am arguing with myself, you seem to be strangely present. Perhaps you are just a figment of my imagination?

I made a general, nonscientific statement about emotional bonds in response to someone who stated that an emotional bond with a cat was all in your head. I made the point that all emotional bonds were in your head, specifically the limbic system.

Yes. And:

1. Your point about the limbic system was not correct, although it contained some of the truth. Given your track record of picking at the scabby details of others’ posts, it’s amusing that you so dislike the same being done to you.

2. All cognition and consciousness exists ‘in your head’, making your ‘in your head’ statement fully information free, and perhaps posted as a purely inflammatory gesture?

common knowledge factoids culled from one of your bookmarks about how it isn’t just the limbic system that is involved in emotions. As though it were some great revelation or sharing of secret knowledge, you stated that there is controversy (gasp) over what comprises the limbic

Accurate statements, one and all. That you didn’t like me posting these things concerns me not one whit.

Here’s some more (from the abstract of Smith, 1991; Aust N Z J Psychiatry 25: 215-230):

“It is concluded that the model of the limbic system as subserving emotional life could now perhaps be set aside in favour of the model of a core set of chemically identified neurons in the reticular system being necessary but not sufficient to subserve higher mental function whilst also subserving other integrating functions…”

You even declared that “all everything” that exists exists in your head, as though the universe were created on the day you were born.

My (thought) universe was, just as yours was created on the day you were born.

Meanwhile, let me quote to you from my cereal box. The comments are written by Júlio Rocha do Amaral, MD…

My, so many Big Names and Words, I’m practically comotose with excitement and insensible with awe.

Here is their text on the main areas of the brain involved in emotions, i.e., the limbic system. You’ll find there the point you made about other structures interfering with emotional expression as well.

"Interfering with’’???

From your cite:

"When pre-frontal lobotomy was used for treatment of certain psychiatric disturbances, the patients entered into a stage of “affective buffer”, no longer showing any sign of joy, sadness, hope or despair. In their words or attitudes, no traces of affection could be detected. "

I.e., PFC (which lies outside the limbic system) is critical in human emotion.

Again, note that the mere presence of a limbic system does not imply that an animal will feel or experience emotions in the same way as humans. I.e., the limbic system is an important part of emotional representation, but the limbic system alone does not suffice for a conscious appreciation of emotions. So, what we call ‘emotion’ requires areas outside the limbic system.

For example, Weniger (2002; Cereb Cortex 12: 258-268) studied emotion in humans with brain injury, stating:

“…subjects with combined lesions of heteromodal and limbic/ paralimbic cortices of the right hemisphere showed the strongest deficits in the decoding of emotional facial expressions. In contrast, subjects with lesions of limbic/paralimbic cortices alone, or subjects with lesions of unimodal or primary motor or sensory cortices displayed only minor deficits”

and

“Lesions of transmodal cortices deprive limbic structures of one of their main sources of input and are therefore likely to produce deficits in various forms of complex human emotional-cognitive behaviors and emotional states.”

Furthermore, the limbic system is not sufficient for lower mammals (e.g., rats) to show normal emotional responses. E.g., in fear conditioning, damage to regions outside the limbic system has been shown to inhibit the changes in fear-induced heat rate response (Frysztak & Neafsey, 1994; Brain Res 643: 181-193):

“MFC [ventral medial frontal cortex] is necessary for complete sympathetic activation of cardiovascular responses to both severely and mildly stressful stimuli.”

But since we were talking about normal people, and not lobotomized zombies, and their emotional bonds with pets — the point had fuck all to do with anything. If you’re going to be rude, at least be interesting.

Indeed - most people do indeed have a limbic system, and it is usually attached to the rest of the brain.

Of course, your original post had fuck all to do with anything, too. Plus ca change.

[SuaSponte]

@Snakescatlady

I chose not to have children.

[SNIP]

Other people’s rude, obnoxious and smelly children totally ruined my trip to Sea World last week. Some people should not be allowed to raise children.

Forget your opinion about cats v. children. You are childless and you voluntarily went to Sea World???
Talk about psycho… :dubious:

Sua

[SnakesCatLady]

Got a week’s pass to Sea World free with our Discovery Cove admission, so we figured what the hell. Besides, I love to see the shows and the sharks and penguins and mantatees…they actually had trained cats in one of the shows. I came home and had a looooooong talk with mine about getting a job and helping out a bit around here, but they just kept purring. My threats don’t mean anything. See - I’d be a horrible mother!

[Liberal]

@Excalibre

Lib, I posted what I did because you made claims that were factually false about the brain.

You’re wrong. Just above your post, I quoted two eminent neurological researchers from whom I’d gotten my information.

I don’t see why you switched into ad hominems either; it’s interesting that you noted the clarity of my points when they agreed with yours and then suddenly claim I’m bashing you when they didn’t. (Compare, for the sake of fairness, the “bashing” I perpetrated on you with my much, much harsher bashing of PinkMaribou - which, again, you praised.)

It wasn’t your bashing that I praised, but your reasoned argument. And honestly, since you singled me out as an example of a pompous overreaching bastard, you have no room to talk about ad hominems.

I’ve pointed out that you try to snow people under with irrelevant references to philosophy and modal logic; I couldn’t make any claim about the technical accuracy of any of those things, because they are far outside my areas of expertise.

You’re right. I stand corrected. What you said, exactly, was:

But they both do the exact same trick - reciting some completely irrelevant thing from memory (like thornhill’s discussion of communication, above, or Lib’s proof of the existence of God) and expecting everyone to be so impressed that they stop arguing. It’s always something from memory, because the strain of having to apply logic and reasoning on the spot is apparently too much. And it’s always in a circumstance where it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand.

I had taken your declaration of my expectations to mean that I thought I was impressing people with my dazzling technical vocabulary. Apparently, you intended some other offense instead.

There’s no harm in being wrong about something - everyone does it; God knows I’ve done my share. It’s a hell of a lot worse to become angry and start lashing out rather that admit it.

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6042549&postcount=28

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[Liberal]

@Boldface Type

If I am arguing with myself, you seem to be strangely present. Perhaps you are just a figment of my imagination?

Or perhaps you have a black hole in your head after all. I’m present here in the same sense that any spectator is present. I opined that the declaration that emotional attachments to cats are in your head applies to emotional attachments generally, a point which others, like TDN, understood completely. You were the sole gladiator fighting your rather pathetic battle until Excalibre noticed that I was posting and adopted the only position he seems capable of adopting — preemptive disagreement with me despite whatever I might actually have said.

Yes. And:

1. Your point about the limbic system was not correct, although it contained some of the truth. Given your track record of picking at the scabby details of others’ posts, it’s amusing that you so dislike the same being done to you.

2. All cognition and consciousness exists ‘in your head’, making your ‘in your head’ statement fully information free, and perhaps posted as a purely inflammatory gesture?

Why would it be more inflammatory than the original statement that emotional bonds with animals is in your head? The absence of your contention there is now conspicuous. And my point about the limbic system was indeed correct. The emotional bonds are formed there, as they are in all mammals.

Accurate statements, one and all. That you didn’t like me posting these things concerns me not one whit.

Here’s some more (from the abstract of Smith, 1991; Aust N Z J Psychiatry 25: 215-230):

“It is concluded that the model of the limbic system as subserving emotional life could now perhaps be set aside in favour of the model of a core set of chemically identified neurons in the reticular system being necessary but not sufficient to subserve higher mental function whilst also subserving other integrating functions…”

My (thought) universe was, just as yours was created on the day you were born.

My, so many Big Names and Words, I’m practically comotose with excitement and insensible with awe.

"Interfering with’’???

From your cite:

"When pre-frontal lobotomy was used for treatment of certain psychiatric disturbances, the patients entered into a stage of “affective buffer”, no longer showing any sign of joy, sadness, hope or despair. In their words or attitudes, no traces of affection could be detected. "

I.e., PFC (which lies outside the limbic system) is critical in human emotion.

Again, note that the mere presence of a limbic system does not imply that an animal will feel or experience emotions in the same way as humans. I.e., the limbic system is an important part of emotional representation, but the limbic system alone does not suffice for a conscious appreciation of emotions. So, what we call ‘emotion’ requires areas outside the limbic system.

For example, Weniger (2002; Cereb Cortex 12: 258-268) studied emotion in humans with brain injury, stating:

“…subjects with combined lesions of heteromodal and limbic/ paralimbic cortices of the right hemisphere showed the strongest deficits in the decoding of emotional facial expressions. In contrast, subjects with lesions of limbic/paralimbic cortices alone, or subjects with lesions of unimodal or primary motor or sensory cortices displayed only minor deficits”

and

“Lesions of transmodal cortices deprive limbic structures of one of their main sources of input and are therefore likely to produce deficits in various forms of complex human emotional-cognitive behaviors and emotional states.”

Furthermore, the limbic system is not sufficient for lower mammals (e.g., rats) to show normal emotional responses. E.g., in fear conditioning, damage to regions outside the limbic system has been shown to inhibit the changes in fear-induced heat rate response (Frysztak & Neafsey, 1994; Brain Res 643: 181-193):

“MFC [ventral medial frontal cortex] is necessary for complete sympathetic activation of cardiovascular responses to both severely and mildly stressful stimuli.”

That’s the sort of puffery I’m talking about. Rather than snip what you lifted from others, I left it intact, so people could see that it contradicts nothing whatsoever that I have said.

Indeed - most people do indeed have a limbic system, and it is usually attached to the rest of the brain.

And emotions eminate from it.

Of course, your original post had fuck all to do with anything, too. Plus ca change.

My original post had to do with the post that claimed emotional bonds with cats is in your head. If I was off-topic, then so was the post to which I responded. And so are all of yours.

[tdn]

@Snakescatlady

I came home and had a looooooong talk with mine about getting a job and helping out a bit around here, but they just kept purring. My threats don’t mean anything. See - I’d be a horrible mother!

No no, don’t be so hard on yourself.

You are a horrible mother.

[Boldface_Type]

@Liberal

You were the sole gladiator fighting your rather pathetic battle until Excalibre noticed that I was posting and adopted the only position he seems capable of adopting — preemptive disagreement with me despite whatever I might actually have said.

So, you wouldn’t say that “Excalibre is making excellent points with exceptional clarity”, then?

Ah, I forget. You said exactly that before Excalibre disagreed with you, at which point (s)he suddenly became less worthy.

And my point about the limbic system was indeed correct. The emotional bonds are formed there, as they are in all mammals.

Sigh. I give up. Like trying to catch farts in a butterfly net, is discussing science with you.

[Greathouse]

@tdn

No no, don’t be so hard on yourself.

You are a horrible mother.

crazy

[Excalibre]

@Liberal

It wasn’t your bashing that I praised, but your reasoned argument. And honestly, since you singled me out as an example of a pompous overreaching bastard, you have no room to talk about ad hominems.

I responded to your argument politely, with an explanation grounded in the content of what you had claimed. You responded with statements about me as a person. You may try to claim the moral high ground in the matter, but that claim seems tenuous to me.

@Liberal

I had taken your declaration of my expectations to mean that I thought I was impressing people with my dazzling technical vocabulary. Apparently, you intended some other offense instead.

I said you attempted to snow people with what you imagine appears to be brilliance. Indeed, you appear to think you impress people with your dazzling intelligence. It has simply been my observation that few people are impressed.

Once again, I point out that you had praised my conduct in this thread, only to react angrily when I disagreed with one of your statements - and you can’t reasonably claim my disagreement wasn’t polite, or was in any way targeted at you as a person. Perhaps you consider this to be reasoned argument. To me it just appears that you can’t tolerate others’ disagreement.

I’m sorry that your period of polite, reasoned debate in this thread was so brief, and I’m sorry that that seems to be your pattern. If you wish to continue pitting me, might I suggest you do so elsewhere?

[Anaamika]

@PunditLisa

Great. Reading through this thread, I’ve alternated between giggling hysterically and rolling my eyes. Now my dog thinks I’m nuts.

Me too. This is some funny shit.

[eleanorigby]

Limbic system? Who said anything about the limbic system?!

We are talking about puppy love here, folks…what tangent are you all on?

and for what it’s worth (not much, I am sure) I do remember the thread all about Liberal and how he got too technical. Here he made a smartass remark about it all being in our heads (and it IS all in our heads) and you guys want to beat it to death.

Well, have at it. I’m going to go play with my cat AND my kids.

[Liberal]

@Boldface Type

So, you wouldn’t say that “Excalibre is making excellent points with exceptional clarity”, then?

Ah, I forget. You said exactly that before Excalibre disagreed with you, at which point (s)he suddenly became less worthy.

Perhaps you thought people were one-dimensional caricatures, unchanging, and always right or wrong — just as you thought people have black holes in their heads.

Sigh. I give up. Like trying to catch farts in a butterfly net, is discussing science with you.

Science? When will you begin discussing science?

[Liberal]

@Excalibre

I responded to your argument politely, with an explanation grounded in the content of what you had claimed. You responded with statements about me as a person. You may try to claim the moral high ground in the matter, but that claim seems tenuous to me.

I believe you have misrepresented what occured. I in fact praised you to others, the very opposite of what you did to me. You began to be wrong when you accused me of making false statements about the brain. You did not read either my post or the cite from the neurological researchers, as mine was a paraphrase of theirs.

I said you attempted to snow people with what you imagine appears to be brilliance. Indeed, you appear to think you impress people with your dazzling intelligence. It has simply been my observation that few people are impressed.

Now, you’re pulling a Charles Barkley and misquoting yourself. What you said I quoted verbatim above. You were wrong about that observation as well.

Once again, I point out that you had praised my conduct in this thread, only to react angrily when I disagreed with one of your statements - and you can’t reasonably claim my disagreement wasn’t polite, or was in any way targeted at you as a person. Perhaps you consider this to be reasoned argument. To me it just appears that you can’t tolerate others’ disagreement.

I just provided a long listing of my admissions of error, proof that you’ve mischaracterized me as unwilling to admit when I’m wrong. And now, despite conclusive proof of your own error, I see no admission from you.

I’m sorry that your period of polite, reasoned debate in this thread was so brief, and I’m sorry that that seems to be your pattern. If you wish to continue pitting me, might I suggest you do so elsewhere?

And you are doing what to me, heaping praise? Physician, heal thyself.

[Excalibre]

@Liberal

And you are doing what to me, heaping praise? Physician, heal thyself.

Again, Liberal, I don’t think this is an appropriate place for you to enumerate your personal problems with me.

[Liberal]

@Excalibre

Again, Liberal, I don’t think this is an appropriate place for you to enumerate your personal problems with me.

I don’t think this is an appropriate place for you to play out your obsessions about me. I asked nothing of you. Why not just leave me alone?