Sorry, but the truth isn’t always what we want to hear. It is, ultimately (with a relatively narrow group with diagnosed physical problems excluded) about willpower.
Yes, there’s a lot of food around you. Yes, it ain’t always healthy. But you’re the one making the decision to put it in your mouth.
I don’t know. But obesity running in families certainly doesn’t provide very strong evidence that theirs a physical component to it.
So you feel that it is equally easy for everyone? That was the point of my post, which you seem to have missed. Apparently you’re the one choosing what you want to hear, Metacom, as you only responded to about a quarter of my post.
The point is that it’s not just “put in a little willpower and you’ll be fine”. People have to have the means to lose weight, people have to believe that they can change, and people have to have support – especially from the medical profession.
It’s roughly equivalent to saying that becoming a marathon runner is “just willpower”. No, it’s not. Not everyone can become one; surely, everyone can improve towards that goal, but not everyone will find it equally easy or achieve the same end results. In addition, you need to have the knowledge about what to do, and the tools to go about doing so. A person who is poor, or works a lot of hours, or whatnot simply doesn’t have the same opportunity.
What I’m asking for is the medical profession to step up and start meeting some of these needs. There have been a lot of posts in this thread about bad experience that overweight people have had in seeking their own doctor’s advice! Clearly, they are showing a will to change, but they are not provided with any help.
In the end, establishing a healthy diet for long-term weight loss is a challenging thing for someone who is already overweight. Typically, overweight people do not have the same tools and skills for weight management and exercise. We as a society are not helping by saying “you just need willpower”. We would do better to provide real assistance by having doctors and nutritionists providing appropriate meal planning and exercise advice for that individual based on their physical state as well as their cultural and personal needs. This might include therapy for some people in order to build them up.
Our whole society tears people down who are overweight, metacom. You are one of these people. This is counterproductive and destructive. Acknowledging the difficulty and the genuine need of overweight people is what’s needed. To me, it’s like abstinence education – telling people to just use willpower to lose weight is like telling them just don’t have sex. People are going to have sex and people are going to eat food that’s not healthy for them. By providing reasonable diet plans (calorie expectations based on starting weight, for example; I’ve lost the most weight sustainably on a plan that included more calories, since I didn’t feel like I was going to pass out all the time and could exercise) that show people how to balance everything are helpful.
I don’t think this is limited to the medical profession, either. I think it needs to start with children while they are still developing habits. We should make physical education actually educational, and help children who are overweight by finding out ways to encourage them rather than put them in hostile environments with a strong disincentive to participate.
I think it is a greivous shame that an overweight person who is putting their health at risk can do into a doctor’s office and get no real medical direction on how to resolve the problem. Many doctors just don’t understand that people need more. I had to go to private non-medical companies to find a diet plan that worked for me and to get actual instruction in exercises that are appropriate for my goals. Many people cannot afford to do this, or are intimidated by the process.
You can be dismissive all that you want of the difficulties involved, but willpower will not fix this problem alone any more than willpower will make smoking disappear or STDs disappear. Just Say No has never been a viable policy for bringing about actual behavioral change.
No. Some people will need to use more willpower then others.
True. Generally it’s “put in a lot of willpower and you’ll be fine.”
Everyone (with exceptions for the physically disabled and those suffering from some medical conditions) has the means to lose weight. Eat less. Excercise more.
People don’t have to believe that they can change. It’s helpful, but not necessary. Likewise with support. Not needed, but helpful. And I don’t see why the medical profession has to be more involved in this–the advice doctors typically give (“Eat less, excercise more.”) is pretty much spot on. It’s your choice whether or not you’ll follow that advice.
Once you have the knowledge of how to train for a marathon, it IS just willpower. You have to have the self-discipline to make yourself train for it, and to adapt your habits and life to your goal.
And I think pretty much everyone has the knowledge of how to loose weight. Eat less, excercise more. Not complicated. And if they don’t know some finer point of counting calories or excercise, they can take the initiative and learn.
Um, no. Overweight people tear overweight people down when they choose to eat more calories then they should and lead sedentary lives. It ain’t societies fault. I’m all for providing more diet advice and guidelines, and providing excercise advice, but I really don’t think it’ll make a difference. People already know how to eat better. People already know how to excercise (it’s as simple as putting on your shoes and walking out the damn door!). But they choose not to. It ain’t societies fault that fat people are fat, and it ain’t societies responsibility to fix it. But I’ll agree that it would be nice if they helped a bit.
I’m not dismissive. I’ve said it before, and I’ve said it again: loosing weight is hard.
Incidently, most of the people I know who quit smoking succesfully in the long-term did so by going cold-turkey. Talk about willpower!
Yes, you and Crafter_Man, Ellis Dee and Diogenes are extremely dismissive, to the point of not even reading the posts of people bothering to post here with excellent, first-hand knowledge of why this is such a problem for so many people. (If any of you are reading the posts here, it’s not showing much in your responses of “lalala fat people are fat because they have no willpower lalala I can’t hear you”.)
And once again, smoking is not like being overweight. Imagine taking an alcoholic, and telling them that they have to keep drinking for the rest of their life, but they can only have one bottle of beer every day - they HAVE to have a bottle of beer to survive, but it can only be ONE bottle of beer, every day for the rest of their lives. You can’t stop drinking, but you can’t drink too much, even though it takes every ounce of willpower you have every minute of every day for the rest of your life to not have more than one beer. Maybe that will give you an idea of what it is like to fight a chronic weight problem.
You need to learn the difference betwen “not reading” and “not agreeing with.”
And I have plenty of first-hand knowledge of why being fat is a problem and how hard it is to loose weight.
I quit smoking cold turkey with nothing but willpower. Nothing to it. I also did not find it overwhelmingly difficult to “will” myself to use condoms before I was married, thus avoiding STDs. Deciding not to eat a krispy kreme is easier than either of those things.
And yet we still have a huge and increasing problem with obesity in this country… so which do you think will be effective:
a.) Provide doctors with training to provide appropriate support and education to patients who are interested in losing weight; or
b.) Telling people to use “willpower” and just eat less and exercise more.
Hmmmm. Seems to me that option “b” has been around quite some time and hasn’t solved the problem.
The point is that doctors feel the need to point out that people are obese, but won’t actually provide any real help. This is like saying “Oh, you have cancer”. Some people will know what treatments to seek out – others will not and need to be told what are the pros and cons of each.
Eat less, exercise more just isn’t enough. Most people know this, yes. I knew this. However, I didn’t always know exactly how much less I should be eating to achieve sustainable weight loss; I didn’t know what exercise I could or should do, or how much. There are lots of questions involved here. Do you not think that doctors should play some role in helping people overcome what is essentially a health problem?
And do you think all people are perfectly well educated on weight loss? I beg to differ. Many people have massive misconceptions on how to lose weight. There is a lot of bad advice out there that is either plain not helpful or actually harmful.
There are plenty of diets and exercises out there that are harmful, especially to someone who is already overweight. Often they are not practical for a sustainable diet for the long term (which is what people really need to keep a healthy weight).
Yet, there are well-meaning people who fail. Rather than sitting on a high horse saying “I did it, so that means EVERYBODY can do it MY way. Just use willpower and don’t smoke!”, isn’t it be appropriate for a doctor to say, “If you want to quit smoking, here are some things that will help you…”
If I go to a doctor and ask about quitting smoking, I want to hear about options. I don’t want a sermon about how morally inferior I am for not surmounting the obstacle on willpower alone. I would expect than an ethical doctor would have a discussion with me to see if, in my situation, drugs, patches, nicotine gum, or any other treatment would increase my chance of success.
Hmm, I’m not eating a Krispy Kreme. Haven’t in ages. (checks) Oh, look, I’m still fat!
Look at reality. Most overweight people are not cramming greasy food down their craw as fast as possible. (Most Americans are overweight!) It’s a lot of little choices every day. Every portion size, every food choice, every choice that involves physical activity, a thousand choices a week can and do affect your weight. You can’t quit eating cold turkey, there’s no overcoming the withdrawal. You need to eat. Willpower is a part of it, but I think that doctors have an ethical responsibility to educate people rather than berating them. It’s a long term commitment – a lifetime commitment.
Doctors are in the business of making people healthier. Doctors like those in the OP are not making anyone healthier. People get frustrated with losing weight. I work with a whole bunch of women who are CONSTANTLY going on about their weight. Yes, on occasion they fail – but most of the time they are trying to be good, trying to exercise, but then they get frustrated because they are too hungry and tired and yet aren’t losing weight this week. If a doctor was involved, I would hope that he would help by giving reasonable advice to follow on what to eat, how much to exercise, and what to expect. This would increase results. Yes, the person has to show the will to do this, but if they do, and a doctor won’t help by giving information, I feel that this is as bad as denying a person medical treatment.
Gee, are those the only two choices? :rolleyes:
Not really. Nutrionists, dieticians, books on low-calorie diets, coaches, people who lead amateur sports teams, etc. are all far better suited to providing diet and excercise advice and support then doctors.
Unless you have pre-existing health problems, you don’t need a doctor to tell you how to excercise. Pick a sport or physical activity you enjoy and just do it. Simple.
And guess what? They all exist already! You just have to… Wait for it… Make the decision to change and get involved with one or more of them!
No. But it’s so simple that you don’t need to be perfectly educated to loose weight.
(I meant to say “diet or excercise advice and support then doctors”)
[Hijack]
I usually don’t make NaziGrammarian posts, but you’ve made the same mistake in at least three posts, so I figure it IS a mistake and not just a typo.
The word you want to use in that sentence is LOSE - a transitive verb. LOOSE is an adjective, the main definition being the opposite of tight.
Thusly:
If I lose some weight, my clothes will become loose.
See?
[/Hijack]
Incorrect. Diets are not enough, in that they are by nature temporary changes in eating habits. Only lifestyle changes to eating and exercise will work. This has been known forever. It is the only approach that has ever or will ever work.
What you’re failing to understand is that everybody has to do it “his” way. To stop being overweight, the ONLY method with any chance is to eat right and keep active. To stop smoking, the ONLY way is to stop smoking. Nicotine gum and those stupid patches don’t make people quit; they merely take the edge off for people who are serious about quitting. (And I’d wager that the success rate with those psychological crutches is similar to any fad diet’s success rate, and 90% of the people who succeed with them would have succeeded without them, just as with diets.)
Listen, there is NOTHING THAT WILL HELP YOU. The only way to affect life change is to make the mental decision to do it. Period. It’s almost as if you think that AA makes people not drink. Guess what? AA is merely a place to vent, and offer the services of a sponsor. 100% of the work, effort, and mental will that goes into staying sober is completely up to the individual alcoholic. (The majority of AA is centered around things like realizing you have a problem and getting your life back in order. The actual not drinking part is pure individual willpower. Same with quitting smoking. Same with losing weight. Same with building muscles. Same with fucking life.)
That’s your problem right there. Because it’s so hard to do, many/most people look for an easier shortcut. THERE IS NO SHORTCUT.
Uh, bullshit, unless you have a cite showing massive amounts of people eating healthy as they balloon up. My guess? People who are obese (really, these awkward constructions are much more of a pain in the ass to type than “fatties”, but Jesus Christ you people are so sensitive) may indeed be eating healthy to try and lose weight. But I’ll bet you a gazillion dollars that the vast majority became obese by doing exactly what you claim they aren’t: cramming greasy food down their craw as fast as possible.
The main reason many people have no tolerance for an obese person whining about how it is unusually difficult for them to lose weight because of their particular unique situation is because it is seen as a way of dodging personal responsibility/accountability. And that’s irritating as shit.
You have mistakenly attributed this quote to me.
StarvingButStrong, I’m aware of the difference. You’ll note that I’ve also correctly used “lose” in my previous posts.
I reserve the right to interject such hijacks into your future arguments.
That’s not what the posters here are saying. In the beginning, there was food. Some people decided to eat a whole lot of it and became obese, sometimes to the extent of being morbidly obese. The word says it all. The fat these people are carrying is a disease in the way that it causes them several ailments on their bodies. One of those has to do with arteries, another with joints, and another with insulin. Once your insulin levels and metabolism have become morbid, it’s another playing field.
Consider two smokers in equal conditions. One has smoked a pack a day for a year, the other has smoked three/day for a decade. It’s safe to assume it’s going to be more difficult for the second smoker to quit given how much more time nicotine has had to play with his brain. Other comparisons aside, that’s what the posters are saying, that is going to be unusually hard, morbidly hard, for some obese patients to lose weight than for others. Most of the time (aside from the genetic anomalies), it’s their own damn fault or their parents’ for being this way, but that’s how it is.
However, it is fair to say some people have a tendency to gain weight and others have a tendency to simply not gain weight. Before turning morbid, it has everything to do with willpower whether you want to keep your body healthy or let it go all the way into the Guiness book.
Fuck you.
You’re in the US, I’m in Canada, how the hell would YOU be paying my medical bills?? The only health problem I have is allergies, and last time I checked, allergies aren’t caused by being fat. And I pay for all my allergy medications and injections MYSELF, asshole.
No wonder you’re such a cranky asshole.
I think it goes a little more like this:
In the beginning there was food. This food was found in the wild, by hunting and gathering, and then preparing the food to suit the taste of those eating it. This hunting and gathering, along with the general foraging for shelter and roaming in tribes, helped make sure that all or most of the caloric intake was burned off.
Then man started developing technology to do most of his work for him. A lot of his jobs started becoming sedentary, as in sitting behind a desk all day. A lot of food also started being prepared for him by large corporations looking to make a profit, and since flash frying it is the fasted and cheapest way, that’s how they make most of it. Man’s caloric intake began to be much larger than his burn rate, so he became fat.
Some people found ways around this, by going to the gym, waking up a little earlier in the morning to go for a jog around the block, or by eating less/better (usually a combination of the above). Some choose not to, so they get fat.
The End
By the way, I’m going to stop making the exception for the small percentage of people who have gladular problems in every post in which I discuss fitness or being fat. I’m tired of typing it, you’re tired of reading it.
Is it just me, or does it seem like those who are berating and making dismissing, patronizing comments about “fatties” are all males? Most of the supportive posts are female-with a few males?
Just an observation.
Oh, get used to it. That’s the fall-back position the majority always uses against the minority.
They used it against motorcyclists. “Oh, if they don’t wear helmets, they’re driving up medical costs!” Bullshit. They feed the funeral industry, if anything. If driving up medical costs was really a concern, car drivers would be wearing helmets and their cars would all be painted neon orange.
“Smokers drive up medical costs!” Whatever. Supposedly we die sooner so the rest of you have more Social Security to live on.
“Blacks don’t wear seatbelts, they’re driving up medical costs!” Heh. That one didn’t work so well.
“Fatties are driving up medical costs!” Well, welcome to the club. How’s it feel to find yourself in the minority picked-on club?