Here’s how our story may appear to some. A woman celebrating played her music too loud and her neighbors called the cops with a noise complaint. Of course, since the woman was black and the music hip hop we know that can’t possibly be the whole story. And certainly it isn’t:
Now, you ask, how did our intrepid reporter come to this shocking conclusion. Why, of course, through skills developed during her years at medical school:
Ah yes. The classic medical courses like Anatomy, BioChem, and identifying racism in noise complaints.
I do feel a little bad for my sarcasm after I read the horrible outcome of her plight:
Oh god. The horror. But wait, it gets worse!
Oh sweet Jesus! I can vividly picture the terror of a cop standing at her door in a natural pose!
I’m surprised it only took her a few nights to recover from the ordeal of providing identification to a cop and having nothing else bad happen.
In all seriousness, I get that there are stupid people in the world like the one that wrote this piece. What I can’t quite grasp is how far the Washington Post has fallen. Of all the race related incidents that happen in this country, this is the one that makes it to their pages? A piece by a woman who seriously thinks her medical training equips her to detect racism? They’ve lost touch with reality.
That site is paywalled, so I couldn’t read it, however…
I’m not philisopher and I’ve always been bad at this, but I’m pretty sure there’s a fallacy in there somewhere.
I didn’t read the article, so I don’t know if it’s just how the officer was standing or he felt some kind of threat, however minor. I had that happen to me as well. I was at work, late at night, hours after we closed. I walked outside (don’t know if there was a knock or I was leaving) and found a cop waiting to see what was going on. The entire time we were talking, until he ID’d me AND decided that it was okay for me to be there, his hand was on his gun IIRC, the holster was unsnapped as well. But, to his credit, he had no idea if I was in there doing work or robbing the place. In any case, I understood, stayed calm, answered his questions and he was on his way. Yeah yeah, I’m a white cis male that looks harmless and at the time I was a ‘clean cut’ 20ish year old. Based on looks alone, he probably felt he didn’t have a whole of reason to be concerned. However, he would have been within his rights (I assume) to detain/cuff me until he knew what was going on.
Having said that, it wasn’t that big of a deal and not the only time I’ve interacted with police while being there late at night. That cop, however, was ‘out of his jurisdiction’, most of the local cops A)know me and B)know my car, so they wouldn’t have thought anything of it. That was seemed visibly suspicious. But being my business, I’m 100% okay with them checking these things out.
If you look for racism, you’ll find it, even if it’s not there.
Been Around The World by Diddy (featuring Notorious B.I.G. & Mase)
It’s All About The Benjamins by Diddy (featuring Notorious B.I.G., Lil Kim & The Lox)
California Love by 2Pac
Hit Em Up by 2Pac
Back That Azz Up by Juvenile
Still Not a Player by Big Pun
Jam by Michael Jackson
Right Here by SWV
Invincible by Michael Jackson
Black or White by Michael Jackson
How Many Drinks? by Miguel
I’m Every Woman by Whitney Houston
Bia’ Bia’ by Lil Jon
Lean Back by Fat Joe (featuring Lil Jon, Eminem, Mase & Remy Martin)
Walk It Out by Unk
If this is being reported accurately, then this sounds like a very strange and aggressive way to approach a noise complaint.
And then I’m going to cross-reference with all the stuff that’s been going on the past couple of days in the Pit thread and the ATMB thread that started about some of Skald’s threads. In those threads, a lot of women who complained about the content ended up complaining about their concerns being minimized, mostly by men.
The parallel is this: black people and women (let alone black women) in this country often have to endure a daily round of humiliation and fear that I (white male) don’t. I’m not going to try to convince you that this is true, the evidence is all around for those who are willing to see. So to keep this short, I’m going to suggest that this woman really was afraid and shocked by her treatment by this officer, and was unfortunately trying to make her reaction more believable by referring to her racism radar. Is the story true as told? I don’t know. I don’t know the motives of her neighbors. I don’t know why a noise complaint at 3pm on a Saturday was taken so seriously by the police (I’ve made noise complaints late at night and they never seemed to get any response). But in the context of this society, I don’t think the whole thing is particularly far-fetched, including the imputation of racist motives.
I believe everything she said, and I think it’s no big deal (especially if this is the first time it’s ever happened to her).
On the other hand, I also believe it was a terrible experience for her and that racism probably played some part in it which added unnecesary pain to her fear. Bad karma all around.
I’m going to leave the race/gender out of this, I know it’s kinda the point of the OP, but I wanted to address something.
As stated earlier, his hand may have been ‘on his gun’ because it’s a convenient place to rest it (just like you see some officers resting their hands on/on top of their vest). I’ll grant you this seems intimidating, I even mentioned upthread when it was done to me, but I don’t think it’s meant to be. However, for the sake of the thread, while it seems as natural as keeping your hand in your pocket, I won’t discount the possibility that it’s done on purpose, for the…implication.
Regarding the other questions, at least to me, they make sense. The cop wants to know if others are in the house so they know how many people they’re dealing with. Do they need to worry about another person while they’re talking to this person.
As far as the ID, I’m getting mixed results as to whether or not they can legally ask for ID (and at your house). However, ISTM they always ask for it. If for no other reason, so they can put it their report who they spoke to. As far as her comment that that she lived there, the cop has no way of knowing that without an ID.
Also, if she was breaking a law, for example a noise ordinance, I’d assume all bets are off. Be nice, turn your music down (you knew it was too loud, right?) and the cop will probably be on their way. Be a jackass about it and you’ll probably get a ticket. If the cop wants to write you a ticket and you’re refusing to ID yourself, you’ll probably be in cuffs ‘until we figure out what’s going on’.
PS, it’s entirely possibly I’m jaded/biased from watching way too much Live PD.
Do the make sense as the very first things out of the officer’s mouth? Why would he be expecting trouble of the kind that would warrant these precautions, for a noise complaint? I would expect something more along the lines of “Excuse me, ma’am, there have been complaints about loud music this afternoon, apparently from this apartment” and going on from there. Why the up-front hostility and cross-questioning? Full disclosure, I am not now and have never been a police officer. If this is SOP in this situation then I’m flummoxed about the reasoning behind it.
When the police came to our house in the middle of the night three years ago to inform my wife of her father’s death in a hiking accident, the first thing they did was ask for her ID.
Here are what I find fishy about this: the fact that this was 3 PM–as in, in the afternoon–and that she the first point of contact about her being too loud was apparently the cop knocking on her door. It’s strange enough to call in a noise complaint during the day, but even stranger to call in a noise complaint without first trying to contact the person involved and not get the police involved.
The problem could possibly be that the article is leaving out pertinent information. Maybe they have called before. Maybe what she considered a normal low volume is actually really loud. But, if her report is accurate, then I do wonder why they didn’t treat her like a human and talk to her first.
If what she described happened to me, I’d be looking for reasons my neighbors might hate me, too. And, if I were black and they were white, and I had no other contact with them, racism would be one of the reasons I would consider, just as in the article. Especially with the added information that other music not so closely associated with black people is often tolerated.
As for the cop, I also see something fishy: it sure sounds like he didn’t begin by telling her why he was there. A cop knocking on your door is inherently threatening. Barking orders is not the best way to ensure a smooth operation. Here’s how it should go, in my head.
“Pardon me, ma’am. I’m afraid we got a noise complaint about this apartment. Are you here alone?” “Yes, I’m alone” “Thank you, ma’am. Now standard procedure is that I need to see some ID.” “Why? I live here.” “I know, ma’am, but it’s procedure. I need to see your ID so I can record the incident. Don’t worry, a single complaint won’t get you in any sort of trouble.”
And all of that should be delivered in a friendly manner. There’s no reason to be gruff when dealing with a minor complaint like this. There’s no reason to make the civilian feel in any way threatened by you. When people seem unnecessarily hostile, the same thing happens as I said above. You start to wonder if there’s something else going on.
I can’t say it’s racism, but I do think that, unless we are missing information, both parts sound fishy. And even if it isn’t racism, both the complainant and police officer should have acted differently, and I’m with the woman in being put out by it.
I think it’s reasonable to expect higher tolerance of noise during the day, contacting someone with a problem before calling the cops, and for cops to use the appropriate level of friendliness, relative to the severity of the issue, rather than putting people on edge.
OP: Is it your claim that the incident wasn’t racist, or that the woman’s medical training gave her no special expertise to make a judgement? On the first point, read my response to Little Nemo. To the second I’ll post another follow-up.
The first thing I do when I see peculiar comments from a Doper is Search for mentions of Obama. I saw the following—not proof that treis is himself racist, but since almost every single top American politician is a millionaire, the following, if not racist, is mid-bogglingly stupid
I’ll let Diogenes the Cynic ridicule this confused (and possibly racist) ideation:
I agree with much of this but not the first two. The woman may have overreacted, but how was she in the wrong? By playing music too loud?
And my guess is that had the music player been white, neighbor would have contacted the player, if anyone, not the police. That’s just my guess, but thousands of incidents lend credence to this guess.
As to OP’s other possible complaint:
Well, smart people are … smart.
One sees complaints similar to OP’s frequently on the Board. One Doper was uninterested in Paul Krugman’s opinion on any economic subject outside the specialty for which he was awarded the Nobel Prize.
Or consider my effort to educate Dopers on the strong case for an alternative Authorship by mentioning that several Supreme Court Justices thought Shakespeare didn’t write the plays and sonnets. The intent was to jog people a little bit: Justices aren’t flat-earthers and certainly aren’t eager to be branded as crackpots; that several had open minds about the Authorship hoax should have opened minds. Instead all we got were complaints that the Justices weren’t Shakespeare experts. :smack:
(Threads on the authorship controversy here have 98% of the posts showing obvious ignorance of even the 25-word summary. I’ve thought of Pitting the posters in those threads, but am not masochistic enough.)
The questions make sense, but the general attitude is agressive. Starting with “good evening, ma’am” and with explaining that there had been a noise complaint probably wouldn’t have killed him.
I mean, it’s the US. Maybe it would have. But probably not. There’s probably also some cops over there who don’t approach every civilian as if said civilian was the enemy, but the only one I happened to meet wanted to ask me out. That kind of attitude is something which needs changing, regardless of the race, religion, national origin, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, pregnancy status, family status, ability status, veteran status, genetic information, party affiliation, profession, sports fandom and computer types owned or utilized by the parties involved.
I can’t read the article cited in the OP (paywall), but from what I’ve read here, her feelings of hostility from law enforcement and possible racism from her neighbors don’t seem all that far-fetched to me.
That hasn’t been my experience, at least not in the US. I know, plural of anecdote isn’t data, yadda, yadda, but my two encounters with noise complaints in America began and ended with police involvement, whereas my two experiences with noise complaints in Ireland began and ended with conversations at my door with my neighbors. (And I’m a white dude.)
Not in my experiences. Both US encounters had the cop on their way, alright… with me in the back of their cruiser.
Probably because he might reasonably come across other illegal activities, as he did in both of my cases (smoking weed in Texas in the 90s, if you were curious). Which is part of why I think people should think a bit more deeply before they pick up the phone to 5-0 for some loud music or other minor nuisance. You might only be concerned with getting your neighbor to quiet down and not really give a shit what else they might be up to. But once you make that call, it’s out of your hands.
In the 12 years since I’ve been living over here, I’ve noticed a much greater tendency for neighbors/strangers to interact socially on a casual basis than I did in America. Probably has something to do with not worrying about everyone packing heat, but that’s a whole 'nuther thread…
I’m white and when I played my music too loud the first I heard about it was a warning letter from my local council off the back of a noise complaint filed by my white neighbours. They didn’t approach me once. Some people just really don’t like face-to-face confrontation.
Verdict: Not racism, and certainly not worth an article in the Washington Post.
Yes, I worded that carefully. On a side note, back in high school there was a question on a test “can you put water in your gas tank”. The answer, of course, was yes. It might not run well, but you can. You can also put rocks or spaghetti in there. Why that trick question showed up on a test in shop class where we were studying engines, I don’t know.
Okay, I finally managed to read the article. What a load of crap. It reads like someone that had a minor issue at a store and is now writing bad reviews and telling all their friends not to shop there anymore.
The OP left out one of the author’s credentials. In addition to going to med school, she’s also pregnant. Let’s look at a few things. If she can write an opinion piece, I can tell people what I think of it…
And I only shoot people on special occasions. So what.
If you play your music in your car loud enough that they can hear it when you pull into work, perhaps your playing it too loud.
No, no you don’t.
My hands are near my hips as well. Being a doctor, you think she’d realize that that’s where your hands are.
So all that because a cop asked her to turn down her music.
I don’t claim to know this for sure, but it could also be because she found out that day that she was pregnant.
Well, they were arrested, this isn’t really the same. And, while I don’t want to get into the Starbucks thing, it’s legal to trespass someone from your business. But the big part is that the racism issue. In this case, prior to you opening the door, the cop had no idea what race you were.
I’m not sure why you’d even compare that to your experience.
A few takeaways:
If one of her neighbors had been blaring music, would she have called the cops on them?
When you live in an apartment and share walls/ceilings/floors with other neighbors, you have to be respectful of that. When I finally bought a house, one of my reasons was that if I have annoying/loud neighbors, at least they’ll be 100 feet away instead of 6 inches.
From NC law:
50/55db isn’t very loud. It basically comes down to "if you can be heard in the next apartment, you’re violating this.
Also, in a maybe the person that called was trying to sleep and was sick of constantly hearing her music blaring.
Also, Chapel Hill code states that, during the day, sounds you create can’t be more than 50db on the neighbors property.
And lastly, my favorite:
Which is exactly what happened. She was bugging the neighbors and told to knock it off.
Yes, cops knock on the door very hard (in college we called it a ‘cop knock’, good for scaring your friends). Yes, they’re going to ask for your ID. Yes, they may ask if anyone else is in the apartment. Yes, they’re going to ask you to turn down your music.
I don’t particularly care if you’re ‘old money’ and have a $10,000/mo loft at a fancy apartment. It’s not going to change anything.
Again, if you go looking for racism, you’ll find it.
On a final note, this whole thing happened like 6 months ago. It’s time to let it go.
I feel like more often than not (and somewhat understandably) people forget that cops never know what they’re walking in to. Every traffic stop can turn into the subject getting overly aggressive. Every house call can turn bad very quickly. It seems a lot of questions can be answered with ‘you know that, but I don’t know that’. It’s funny how many people, when the cop says ‘I’m just going to pat you down for weapons’ will reply ‘I don’t have anything on me’.
PS, one more thing I wanted to mention/reiterate about the ID. She did break a law, they’re going to want her ID, if for no other reason so they have it on record in case they come back. At least IMO, declining to ID yourself to the cops probably isn’t the hill you want to die on.
