But does she need to be found guilty of a crime in a court of law to get mental health treatment for a suicide and the grief of having (probably) indirectly causing the death of her baby? If so, that’s a sad indictment of our mental health system.
IANAL and certainly not conversant with Indiana law (do they even have a death penalty?) but what little I know I would seriously doubt whatever comes of this that it’d be a death penalty case. Such cases have very specific and very narrow criteria for a DA to even think they have a death penalty case. I’d be shocked if this case rose to that level.
Even then the DA can generally use discretion and not force the death penalty as a result.
I think juries, while usually never told about possible outcomes (sentencing) are told if they are on a death penalty case (I may be wrong, just my understanding). I cannot see a DA going for a death penalty in this case even if it were possible (which I seriously doubt it is).
Neat. I suppose homeless people, orphans in group homes, and the elderly who have out lived their loved ones are also fair game because there’s no one to actively mourn them.
After thinking on this awhile my opinion is this woman needs help, not a prison sentence.
Whether that help involves criminal prosecution that mandates treatment or just a strong suggestion than she get therapy I am not sure of.
What it does seem like to me is an opportunity for the the anti-abortion movement to score a point.
As if there is not enough misery in this case already that they’d add to it to advance their agenda seems just one more horror to add to the pile.
This woman has been through enough. It’ll be hard enough for her to get on with life after this as is. This is adding insult to injury.
Well, that’s Congress for ya…
But seriously, no. I don’t see why the criminal justice system has to be involved.
FWIW this article states that the coroner determined the cause of death was the mother’s ingestion of the poison:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42116782/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/
Unrelated, but why do you think a chemical has to be a teratogen to cause death of the fetus? I would think a poison is good enough to do the job without causing a birth defect.
There’re still the other 3 principles, you know.
Besides, your immediate next of kin aren’t the only people who can be harmed by your dying - friends count just as much. (also, homeless people have no family ? I guess they must sprout from the pavement in winter or something)
Wouldn’t a defect take time to manifest itself?
Seems to me all this happened in (relatively) short order.
- Take poison
- Get treatment soon after
- Give birth within a few days
- Baby dies four days later
Maybe the term “birth defect” has me hung up (medical definition versus layman’s definition).
You can’t be against the death penalty “except in some cases where it’s complete justice”, bro (whatever the hell complete justice may mean). That’s called being for the death penalty.
That’s my point. A teratogen is something that disturbs the development of a fetus. Think thalidomide. A poison can kill quickly or over a period of time.
Inbred Mm domesticus asked what evidence exists that rat poison is a teratogen. I don’t know if he/she is confusing the term or believes that something must be a teratogen to cause the death of a fetus.
In my opinion, this poor woman has suffered enough.
I think “complete justice” means 100% Justice, with no room left for Mercy.
I am guessing this is being snarky but why can’t justice include mercy? (perhaps best for a thread of its own)
Not my opinion, of course. I was trying to interpret the term using the posts of Qin Shi Huangdi in this thread(and others).
In Kabalistic philosophy, Justice is represented by Chesed and Mercy by Gevurah. Chesed is constricting, it’s judgement and power over. It’s needed to balance Gevurah, Mercy, which is all-forgiving and expansive. Think of the stern mother and indulgent father (or you can switch the roles if you like; that’s the order they’re in in Kabala, but in reality of course they can be either). Too much impact from either on the children and the children will end up off-balance. Too much restriction and things don’t thrive, too much freedom, and they’ll run wild and self-destruct.
Tiferet is Beauty, and it’s the balanced point between the energies of Chesed and Gevurah. It’s the mediator, the wholeness and balance. It’s also the power of Moses and Jacob (and Jesus, in later day Kabala) - not afraid to say no, but not afraid to say yes, either.
In parenting, authoritarian parenting is Justice (Chesed). Indulgent parenting is Mercy (Gevurah). Balanced parenting is authoritative (Tiferet), and is authoritarian when it needs to be (to maintain order and safety) and indulgent when it needs to be (when children need to learn from their own mistakes).
In law, bringing a suit is Justice. Ignoring a crime is Mercy. Investigating and deciding that, while technically a law may have taken place, no good will come of bringing a lawsuit is…well, I don’t have a word for it. But it happens, and it *should *have happened in this case, given only the information we have in front of us at this time. The Tiferet place of law, whatever you’d call it.
This was way to get an abortion pre-Roe w. Wade. In her book Keeping Secrets, Suzanne Somers describes having to testify before a hospital board that if she had to stay prenant she would kill herself.
Folk seem to be ignoring this post. Either it’s criminally stupid, or I solved the problem for you. Which?
Neither, I just thought you were stating the obvious.
Thank you. Someone who is bad enough off to want to end their life is not thinking about how it may hurt the baby. There’s no intent there. Murder is not just the killing of someone.
I do actually think the insanity defense could work, at least from a moral standpoint. Not for ordinary depression, but suicidal depression is bad enough the you really can’t think straight.
I honestly think that anything about personhood could be neatly sidestepped by any court, and, from what I’ve read on here, that is the normal way of handling things.
I am sceptical of the death penalty, not against it.