Women: Attractiveness and dismissal of your professional achievements

In My Humble Opinion
21

I’m in that range where whether I am attractive or not is in the eye of the beerholder and on how long he’s gone without; I’ve had people hit on me in what should have been professional situations (that is, if they hadn’t been unprofessional gits) and I’ve suffered different levels of gender discrimination at work, including being told that I could not be an engineer/work in Production because “you’re a girl!” (as I asked the last one, “at what age does one become a woman in this country now?”). I’ve been asked “who the fuck did you blow?” by a coworker who was being fired from a position equivalent to mine while I, hired at the same time, was given a permanent position - but she didn’t accuse anybody of giving me the job based on my attractiveness per se.

I’ve been dismissed on grounds of being female and on grounds of being a foreigner, but never on grounds of looking good.

22

I have a few advantages in the “not dismissed due to my good looks.”

I’m 45, not 25. When I was 25 things were sometimes a little different. And when I was 25, I was much better looking in the way that people tend to be when they are 25 and everything is still tight and glowing - over 45 and things have started to fall a bit.

I’m a brunette. I’ve always suspected blondes have it harder.

I go out of my way to project a professional appearance. Makeup, not too much. Nails done - not bright colors, not too long. Clothing, flattering - not slutwear.

I have two kids and a husband who works a demanding job. So my career is secondary - I’m not climbing the corporate ladder - more sitting and enjoying the view from where I am.

I’ve seen women get hired for their looks (and suspect I was early on more than once) - but usually into jobs where competence is less important and the people in charge can afford to have a secretary or receptionist with big…eyes. Now that there are a lot fewer secretaries and receptionists, I suspect there are a lot fewer jobs that can be done merely because you are eye candy. Once in though, you need to prove yourself.

23

This, oh god for years, this. My family ages slowly. We live a long time and don’t show our age at all. When I was in High School and my dad dropped me off one day the new girl in my class wanted to know what school my hot boyfriend went to. shudder

Unfortunately I took this situation and instead of making it work for me I let it undermine my confidence. If people are just going to dismiss what I’m saying why should I bother right? Luckily I managed to reverse this trend and now when I’ve got suggestions or changes I sound confident when I make them and people do listen. Granted they still look surprised the first few times but eventually no matter how you look your reputation is based on your historical performance. It’s getting through the frustration of having to prove yourself to what feels like a higher standard that’s tough but once you do you’re golden.

I took the leap this year and went from an employee to a contractor thus requiring myself to do this regularly for each new contract. I think I might be insane.

24

[hijack]
I think Hollywood is partly to blame for how bad people are at calculating age, since they are as happy to cast a 23yo to play 30 as a 30yo to play 15… reaching my 40s has been nice, now people think I’m in my 30s and treat me like I’m old enough to vote; their guess would actually match, if I had gone directly from college into consulting without those pesky years in between, working as a chemist (curiously enough, I do think those years are my biggest asset as a consultant, as I understand the customers better than the “pure consultants” do).
[/hijack]

25

Maybe a beautiful person will come along and tell us otherwise, but generally speaking attractiveness is a huge plus. Lots of studies have shown attractive people are perceived as more competent, smarter, better at their jobs, trustworthy, etc. I’m treated much better by people - say, at the grocery store, or post office, etc - when I wear makeup, nice clothes and am freshly showered versus if I just ran a 10k with bedhead. I’ll have coupons for the same brand and similar (but not same) product taken off because I smile and act like I don’t know what’s going on. Hey, for the price of a happy hour martini per a shopping trip, I can slap on the warpaint and act nice.

Obviously we have to wonder if Jon Hamm’s character (Dr. Drew) in 30 Rock got special treatment throughout med school. Still not reality though. :stuck_out_tongue:

((MeanOldLady: I kind of want to have a discussion about black people in restaurants and bars in traditionally expensive neighborhoods. Not in this thread. I’m sure it would go to hell in a handbasket by post #5. To make a long story short, two new friends of mine are black (first black friends I’ve had since I was a kid) and I notice we get a lot of special treatment at happy hour. Like major apologies if something is out and more frequent stops at our table to see if we need anything. And attention from restaurant/bar managers. Heh, in the spirit of the thread, we’re not outstanding beauties either.))

26

Here’s the thing: there might be some actual discrimination against the beautiful that we’re all quick to dismiss because that “hardship” is so minimal in the scope of its advantages, that it’s hard to take the complaint seriously. I’ve come across jokes in TVs and movies involving some ditz saying people don’t take her seriously, and we all have a laugh because of the obvious disconnect between her perceptions and reality. The very small handful of people I’ve ever heard utter this complaint in real life are similarly delusional. I’ve never heard an attractive competent person utter anything of the sort. My first wild guess is maybe because they have enough sense to realize how utterly ridiculous they would come across by saying such a thing out loud. But why would that be the one thing people have too much shame to say? They sure as hell are shameless about everything else. I hear privileged white guys complaining all the time about how oppressed they are, and you’d think they’d be too embarrassed, but no.

My theory, of course, is this general negative bias toward good looking people does not exist. I’m certain there is a lot of jealousy that goes on (same as with being, say, rich or brilliant), but there is no widespread dismissal of their capabilities and achievements. Googling it returns results for all the perks, and a handful of blogs and general BS from a bunch of whiners who think people hate them because they’re beautiful.

People are especially nice to me at restaurants, but I thought they were because that’s their job. Regular people are still jerks.

27

I really think that personality has a lot to do with perceived “attractiveness”, or certainly with self-perceived attractiveness.

For example, the CEO of our company really likes to hire preening sorority-girl blondes for his secretaries and assistants. In terms of their raw physical attractiveness they rate between “middling” and “fair”, but because they’re so obsessed with upkeep and so trained to be flirty and complimentary, I think they get ranked as “very attractive”. It would be way easy to say that they got hired because of these same qualities.

28

Saw this and wanted to chime in. I’m a blonde naturally, but have my hair brown right now with a temporary color. I had dinner the other night with some friends. One of the friends is a natural blonde who has been a brunette for a year or so now. We were both swapping stories about how much better we have been treated by other women than when we have our natural hair.

Amazing what a difference hair color can make

29

When I was younger and much, much more attractive, I had a couple of isolated occurrences where my attractiveness did not work for me. For example, I once went on a job interview arranged by an agency, only to have the man I was interviewing with ask the agency whether I was married or not. He was apparently completely uninterested in my qualifications after he met me. He offered a second interview, which I declined.

Now that I’m older, I’m somewhere on the spectrum between average and reasonably attractive (when I say that, I mean that my husband thinks I’m hot). While I don’t think looks matter much to my peers, I know they do to my boss. Both the women he’s fired have been what many would likely consider very unattractive. I’ve also had my share of comments from him over my looks, even when I was pregnant.

30

Wow, I can’t believe your boss is like that today overly. Yikes.

31

What’s really sad is that I’ve gotten used to getting looked up and down, then receiving leering comments like, “Wow. My thoughts are so inappropriate right now, I’m not even going to say anything.” Ick.

And for what it’s worth, yes, the appropriate people know about it (several times over, from several different people). Little has been done. And, yeah, I know it’s time to skedaddle. Easier said than done when you carry the insurance for your family.

32

Well, I can’t honestly say I feel my accomplishments have ever been dismissed because of my looks (I think I’m very attractive and I’ve been told I am quite a lot…a rather subjective thing, imo) so I’m not sure if my experience even relates to this specific topic.

But I HAVE encountered issues in the workplace related to my appearance/looks.

The most common has been (and as recently as a year or so ago) the perception that I am quite a bit younger than I actually am (44, 45 next month). I’ve always looked young for my age, getting carded until I was in my early 40’s and still sometimes do, but that seems to be changing as I get older…GOOD! Believe it or not, I don’t consider it a benefit…looking “good” is fine by me, I don’t feel any need to look 25. :stuck_out_tongue:

That has sometimes translated into not being taken seriously, treated with respect or given the level of responsibility I am capable of.

Year back, I took over a preschool class for another teacher who was leaving. She was about my age, but made it clear as she showed me around that she thought I was younger and inexperienced. She kept telling me no-brainer things until I informed her, as casually and non-confrontationally as I could, that I held a degree in Child Development and had about 10 years experience working in the field. Her atttitude changed immediately and we got on to the stuff I really needed to know. We went on to become great friends. :smiley:

About 5 years ago, I took a short-term job at a thrift store (we were planning on an out of state move and I didn’t want to take on anything more lasting and then quit on them but needed to sock away some money).

My supervisor, a woman in her 50’s, was very condescending and critical in all our interactions. I finally quit, leaving a letter for the manager telling him exactly WHY (her managment style and apparent personal vendetta).

My last night there, I told a co-worker, “I refuse to be treated like a teenager!”
He, a 45 or so yr old guy, said, “Well, you LOOK like a teenager.”

I don’t think I DO, but apparently I was judged as being one, or at least as being much younger than I was, and therefore assumed to be incompetent and in need of constant guidance/supervision, despite the quality of my work, which was above and beyond.

Last time this occurred was at one of my last temp jobs before I went back to college a few years ago. I was working a large, complicated project with a large private bank and the 50 yr old or so woman who was in charge of me was really micro-managing the project and dumbing things down to a noticable degree. I had a much better system in mind for how to do it, but she gave no indication of being open to my input.

We were discussing something to do with it one day and started chatting about kids, grandkids, etc…and I casually mentioned that I had a 17 year old son and 10 yr old daughter and a few other small hints re’ my age and experience level.

She looked sharply at me, seeming to reconsider her assumptions, and from that moment on, she entrusted me with a much greater degree of responsibility. She pretty much left me to it and I did it my way and finished ahead of schedule.

As I’d suspected, she’d assumed I was some 20-something twit the agency had sent and needed a babysitter. :rolleyes:

The other way in which my appearance has hindered me professionally (and this has, to my knowledge, only happened a few times) is when being passed over for or harrassed on jobs because I was, apparently, considered a threat to other women in the workplace or the wives of male co-workers.

One temp job was so bad in this respect that I left after 2 days and refused to return due to the hostile working environment the woman training me created. I mean, I can and have put up with a LOT, but this was extreme. :eek:

I figured out (and this was confirmed by someone in another dept. at the company) that she felt very threatened by my presence and set out to drive me off. Very odd situation; she was 8 mths pregnant, her boyfriend worked there as well, and she was the ONLY other woman in the office. Some sort of weird, female alpha bitch crap I wanted no part of! (any more than I wanted any part of her boyfriend or any other man there) :smack:

And I’m pretty sure I’ve lost a few job offers based on considerations of my appearance and office “sexual politics”.

And yes, I have experienced sexual harrassment, but not too much or too overt. More along the lines of the 19 yr old errand boy hanging around my desk and showing up for all my smoke breaks to chat me up than a boss or senior co-worker making unwanted advances.

But no, can’t really say that my professional achievements, IF KNOWN, have been dismissed due to my appearance. No one has ever suggested that I slept my way to the top or got preferential treatment in college or the workplace because of looks.

But those who are considered “good looking” do experience discrimination sometimes, though it takes different forms than those considered “not good looking”, and is probably offset more by preferential treatment. :confused:

33

Just as a point to add to the discussion: I coach high school debate and we regularly have to “lose” ballots from judges that demean the girls. Stuff like, “You’re so pretty, why do you want to be so argumentative?” “You’re a beautiful girl, but blah blah.” I’ve seen judges flat out refuse to vote for girls because they are too pretty (even though the judge admits they are the better debater!) and I’ve certainly heard even other coaches dismissing a girl’s achievements, saying it’s just because she’s pretty and the judges like her.

When I was in high school, a few ballots like that slipped through to me. It really fucks with the head of a 15 year old to get stuff like that, let me tell ya.

34

Not ALL people like “good looking people”…some really have it out for them as a matter of principle. :wink:

If you are a “pretty person” desperately in need of a JOB and the person in charge of hiring (or the boss’s wife) sees you as a threat to the stability of the place or her marriage, or if your abilities are assumed to be less than they actually are based on “looking young” this sort of discrimination IS a big deal and affects those individuals as much as someone who is not considered attractive who desperately needs a job and is passed over based on looks.

Obviously, if someone blames everything on discrimination for being “too attractive” OR being “ugly”, that’s bullshit. But it happens both ways.

My situation, I spent a few decades being discriminated against now and then because I looked “too young” or was “too pretty”…now, I get to spend the next few being discriminated against becaused I am “too old” or “not hot enough”. :wink:

35

Observer, I’m sure you’ve experienced people treating you like some punk kid because you were, or appeared to be, young. I’m sure that’s happened to many of us. It’s happened to me, and semi-occasionally happens to me now with one particularly cunty 55 year old co-worker who is an epically terrible bitch to everyone woman she has to work with who is under 30. No, really. Every. Single. One. She actually yelled at one girl, who ran off into the bathroom crying. :eek: But that woman’s a whore, and I don’t think she hates us because we’re beautiful. We’re all average looking, for the most part; she just hates her life.

What a wildly inappropriate thing to say! It seems like, though, for the most part people initially treated you like a dummy because they thought you were young, and once corrected, behaved differently. One can see how that would be the case when attitudes about young people seem to go something like this:

I’ve never (as far as I know) been treated anything like sexual competition. Thank gods. Office politics and competition are asinine and infuriating enough as it is. Re: Sexual harassment. I had the pleasure of working at an auto dealership when I was a 20 year old twit, and let me tell you, that hyper-sensitive, Don’t Even Do Anything That Might Smell Like Sexual Harassment overly PC crap did not exist there. We had more of a Feel Free To Shamelessly Hit On The Twenty Year Old policy. I was once blatantly sexual harassed by my direct manager. :eek: Now that I think about it, one time someone did try to dismiss my high sales numbers by saying, “Well everyone wants to buy a car from a pretty girl.” Bite me, pal. I’m fucking gregarious, and you’re a pushy d-bag. That was a once in a blue moon thing, though, and I interpreted that as an insecure douche once again trying to undermine someone’s successes with whatever cheap shot they could find.

To the extent that it exists, I’d reckon.

36

Wow. The stories my mom tells me of blatant harassment (you have such gorgeous tits, are you married, why are you with that loser baby (uh, he was her fiancee)) I thought were history, since she’s in her 50’s. And I thought were restricted to male-dominated professions like law, engineering, medicine, etc.

Well, if and when you DO get out, try and figure out what the recording laws are where you are, and pursue that if possible. Doesn’t hurt to have evidence besides what others say.

InterestedObserver, that’s pretty interesting stuff. That said, all of your stories revolve around being perceived as younger than you actually are. Substantially younger! No comments about being pretty or unusually beautiful and so on, except for the psycho pregnant lady. I don’t doubt you ARE attractive, but at least it didn’t seem to be at the forefront of your issues.

But yeah, any woman doing the hiring with her husband in the company is gonna keep an eagle-eye out. Doesn’t matter your intentions; most situations like that are a wife who “works” part time at her husband’s medical or law practice, who is very intent on keeping her status in the world :rolleyes:.

Diosa, that is totally heartbreaking. Who are these judges, just people off the street? What’s the distribution, mostly men or women saying that stuff?

37

This had me laughing. It really is why people buy shit from you, too. During college I worked at an interminable job asking for donations for the school. I hated the school. In my free time I’m generally angry and pissed off. But boy, did I jump right to the top of the list by pulling out all the stops out of my entire ass. Conjuring up images of their time at the school, reminiscing on how great things looked and were in ye olde days (oftentimes when I wasn’t even alive), putting ideas in their heads of stuff that could happen right now, with your one time $200 donation!

38

Parents. Isn’t that sick? Most of our judges are parents of competitors (you don’t judge your own kid or kids from that team, but you judge kids from other teams). And you’d think that those comments would mostly come from lecherous old men (don’t get me wrong: we’ve had to boot out some creeper dads for hitting on the girls), but my experience is that most of those comments about beauty and ability come from women-- middle aged women specifically. Granted, it might just be my confirmation bias, but I’d say that the vast, vast majority of those comments come from female judges that appear to be about 35-50. “Don’t you want to go do something fun, like cheer leading? You’re so pretty!” Or “You’re so beautiful, but boys just aren’t attracted to girls who act so smart.” Insanity.

39

I am speechless. What kind of idiot in this modern age still talks this way? WTF???
ETA: not only is it dumb to say. But it is even dumber to believe. Do these idiots think that a blue eyed blond, 36-24-34 is going to get dissed by all the boys if she wins the debate team? Or finds a cure for cancer? Or solves pi to the 1000th place by memory, or whatever it is that smart folks do?

40

FWIW, I sell services for our family business (a consultation firm, but I’m the one who meets with the clients and signs them) and while most people are so nice and happy to meet with me, it’s that same demographic of women who give me shit. In general (again, not always), it is the 35-50 year old women who demand to speak to a man and flat out refuse to even listen to what I have to say. Yes, they literally ask to speak to a man. You’d think the old men in their 70s would be the ones refusing to speak to the 24 year old girl— or the old women, raised in a different era. But nope, they love me and think I’m great. I would say one out of four middle aged women flat out refuse to even speak to me.
When I was a little debate champ in high school, I cried many tears over some of the ballots and comments I received. I couldn’t understand why people were focusing on how I looked, when I worked so hard to be intelligent and capable. Sometime around the age of 17, it hit me: I could cure cancer, find peace for the Middle East, and get everybody in the US a free flat screen-- but there’d still be a good chunk of the population that would look at that and think, “Aw, what a sweet, pretty girl- isn’t it lucky that she figured all that stuff out? Good for her! I wonder who helped her?” Oddly, realizing that was really liberating. I guess it was understanding that there are just some things that people think that I can’t control. As soon as I realized that, I realized it would be smart to use their biases to my own advantage.