Women, how bad is it when a man approaches you?

[puzzlegal]

@jtur88

I know plenty of couples in which neither of them can cook, and are probably challenged by anything more culinary than prying the lid off a chicken bucket and unscrewing a two-liter lid. To put it mildly, there are household things that simply go undone, because modern mothers cut the crap, and didn’t teach gender-traditional skills.

So you are blaming the women?

We didn’t teach “gender traditional” roles, but we taught both our son and our daughter to cook, do laundry, and make minor repairs around the house.

[Shodan]

@Broomstick

Men are going to have to introduce themselves to a LOT of women before they get a reciprocal interest. That, too, is part of reality.

So, do you want to go down to the city dump with me on Saturday night and shoot rats? I got a spare .22 you can use, and afterwards we can get a bite to eat.

Regards,
Shodan (tips hat politely)

[Broomstick]

Ha-ha-ha… points for being original!

Once went to a shooting range with the Doper known as Billy Rubin. I mentioned this the next day to a co-worker who’s first reaction was “Oh! You went somewhere with a man other than your husband? Weren’t you afraid he was going to rape you?”

Um… really? I’m holding a loaded gun. I’ve yet to meet a man quite that depraved or desperate. Which goes to show you just how much some women have been taught to fear men. Which is sad.

I’m don’t mind being sociable, talking to strangers, etc. I do mind rude, boorish behavior. Yeah, yeah, I know men are interested in sex. I expect ya’ll to have other interests in addition to that.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Shodan

It’s a conflict that can’t be resolved.

If the average guy waits for women to approach him, he won’t get any dates. Very attractive or very high-status guys - sure. Not the average guy. (Yeah yeah, cue all the women saying “I always ask first” or listing all the creeps who harassed her or whatever.) The fact remains that men are the pursuers and women are the pursued. It’s not PC to say so, but that’s how it works.

Therefore men need to pursue, but to be gentlemanly about it. Take No for an answer when appropriate.

This is pretty much where I’m at. Allow me to list every single time I have been approached by a woman with romantic interest in me:

My first girlfriend, who hit on me out of the blue on facebook almost a decade ago.

…That was it. Even in cases where I know they were interested in me, they did not approach until I broached the subject. If I don’t approach, nothing will happen. If I do, 99 times out of 100 it’s a respectful, non-threatening encounter where we have a nice chat and nothing comes of it; the remaining 1% I get someone’s phone number and make either a friend or a relationship.

Does this make me an asshole? Honestly, given how important this is for my social life and how few other chances I regularly have to meet people, I don’t care. This seems like such a fundamental part of human interaction, and I’m supposed to limit it to situations I am not generally involved in, and probably spend a lot of time being lonely? I’ll just keep doing what I’m doing, and do so in a careful, respectful way, so as not to freak anyone out. I’d rather be an asshole some of the time than lonely all of the time.

Part of the problem is the breakdown in the code whereby men and women know when it is OK to approach a woman, and the social signals by which the men (generally) signal that they are non-threatening but interested. Catcalling women on the street is not part of the code, but “the roof constitutes an introduction” is. Remarking to the woman sitting next to you on the bus “I see you are reading An Introduction to the History of Cuff Links - what do you think of what he says about short sleeves” is a marginal case. If she says “Mm” you leave her alone. If she says “I haven’t got to that part yet - what does he say?” then you can pursue the conversation and then ask her if she wants to go to the museum with you and she says Yes and you wind up dating and then have wild sex involving Jell-O and feather dusters and then she cheats on you with the security guard at Wal-Mart and there is an ugly screaming match between you at Denny’s and you break up and go into a downward spiral of drugs and alcohol and self-loathing before hitting rock bottom and then writing a tell-all book about the experience that winds up on the remainders shelf at the local self-help bookstore.

But at least you got a date out of it.

Well that took a turn. I’m not sure which snarky joke to go for - “Speaking from experience, are we?” seems like a good bet but I feel like I could do better.

[Budget_Player_Cadet]

@Shodan

So, do you want to go down to the city dump with me on Saturday night and shoot rats? I got a spare .22 you can use, and afterwards we can get a bite to eat.

Regards,
Shodan (tips hat politely)

Didn’t you just hunt dinner? Or are you just that lousy of a shot?

[ZPG_Zealot]

@adaher

Men’s first move is threatening much of the time. So women should make the first move. The current “rules” of society pretty much demand it. At every step.

No, they don’t. There is a courteous way to approach someone you would like to interact with socially and then there is hitting on someone. The problem is far too many guys make no effort to be courteous behavior.

[jtur88]

@puzzlegal

So you are blaming the women?

We didn’t teach “gender traditional” roles, but we taught both our son and our daughter to cook, do laundry, and make minor repairs around the house.

’

Good for you. But your anecdotal effort doesn’t seem to have solved our civilization’s social dysfunction.

Yes, if neither spouse can cook, I blame the woman. Women (and men) should continue to master their traditional gender rules until the other gender assumes enough competence to assume them. It makes no sense to have both genders abandon traditional roles, and just leave them hanging in a vacuum.

[jtur88]

@Left_Hand_of_Dorkness

Normally I see posts like this and think, “that’s too ridiculous to bother with.” Other times I think it’s just barely worth it to post what a ridiculous bit of ex post facto rationalization something is.

We’re all looking forward to someone lifting us out of the mire of ignorance and explaining the alternative non-ridiculous theory about how and why gender roles developed and remained so entrenched in nearly all societies.

[Dogzilla]

1. When a guy is doing this, isn’t it almost always to get you to have sex with him in the near future?

Well, I couldn’t say what a given random guy’s motivation/goal is. That might be the kind of guy who gets off on beating the shit out of women. Or it might be the kind of guy who’s just trying to hustle me for money. Or it could be a guy trying to get sex. On that last one, randomly chatting up women one sees in public doesn’t seem like the most efficient way to go about it.

2. I notice most women are polite and laugh at his jokes. Is this because you actually find him interesting, because you feel the need to be polite, or is there a fear element since you don’t know this guy or how he’ll react?

I would say it’s 80-90% the fear element. You absolutely never know how a person will react. One can be polite and still the rando will turn on you. Or you can be a total jerk with RBF and the guy will turn on you. I was once chatting with a guy in a bar for happy hour right after work – I’d gone with my male roommate (gay) and some of his coworkers. The rando got a bit handsy, so I politely excused myself. He followed me around the bar trying to get me to leave with him (and his friends?) to go to another bar. Dude had shady vibes coming off him, so I said, no thanks, not interested. He stalked off, clearly angry. I found my friend and inserted myself into the conversation circle, which was about five men. Rando comes up to me, breaks into the circle, gets right up in my face and starts cussing me out about what a bitch I am for leading him on. I believe I was called a lying cunt. You never, ever know if or when that’s going to happen and unfortunately, it happens frequently enough that my default is usually excessively polite until I can get to my planned escape route.

3. Does a woman in this world get even a moment alone outside her own abode?

Yes, it does slow down a bit as we approach middle age and sometimes there are some pleasant, quiet moments alone.

4. Are you wiling to listen to a guy’s pitch, or is there no way in hell you’re giving a stranger your phone number just because he was charming on a bus?

I never give my number to strangers. I might take his number, just to escape from the situation. I never call/text though.

5. If you could stop guys from approaching you in non-social situations, would you want to, or do you figure for every 100 frogs there’s a prince?

I don’t think I would want to, although I can’t think of anyone in my life who approached me randomly in a non-social situation who became my friend or lover or anything like that. Nobody who has accosted me is still in my life. However, I have had some very interesting conversations and often have met some really interesting people (mostly in airports). Would I would want is for people to learn to take no for an answer and be fucking polite about it. I would rather people understand that nobody is obligated to give you their attention. Ever.

6. Should there be a more commonly known etiquette around such situations, like “don’t approach me at McDonald’s, but it’s okay to approach me in a club or at a party?”

Please just take no for an answer if that is what you get. I realize that 99% of all media: books, movies, sitcoms, romcoms, music, etc. is built around the idea that persistence pays off and if she says no, then just keep trying because she’s either playing hard to get or you just need to wear her down until she capitulates. I react quite the opposite way and I imagine a lot of other women do too. If my first no isn’t taken as an answer, I will 100% dig in my heels and absolutely refuse to engage. Do not assume that polite or friendly = interested. I might just be polite and friendly.

True story: Went out by myself one night to see a friend’s band. Hung out with the band during breaks, but while they were playing, I sat/danced by myself. During a band break, I’m standing there, talking to one of the guys in the band plus a few other dudes I didn’t know from Adam. It’s all cool; everyone is being polite and friendly and it’s just fine. I spot Rando Dude out of the corner of my eye, observing this little conversational group. He approaches me and stands WAY too close to me to introduce himself. I don’t like that at all, so I gave him a curt, professional handshake, told him my first name and then mumbled something about forgetting something at my car. I made a point of telling my band friend where I was going so he would keep half an eye out for me. We go back inside, band starts up again, and pretty soon Rando is standing at my elbow (I’m sitting so I took that as a power/dominance move), asking what I’m drinking. “Oh, I’m not drinking tonight; I’m driving. Thanks though.” He walks away and I think that’s the end of it. A few minutes later, he walks up, places a glass of wine down on the table in front of me, and tells me, “I put your wine right there.” I was furious. Did I not just fucking tell him I wasn’t drinking? Why would he presume I wanted red wine? Or wine at all? Or that I would drink anyway despite what I’d just told him? AND WHY THE FUCK WAS NO NOT GOOD ENOUGH? Annoyed, I barely glanced at it, and snarled at him “That’s not my wine.” I knee-jerk reacted before I even thought to be cautious/polite. He got this pissed off look on his face and stalked off – thank god that didn’t escalate because my friends were busy making music and I was 100% on my own. Who the hell knows what happened to that wine between the moment it was poured and the moment it was placed on the table in front of me. I’d have to be an idiot to drink something a total stranger brought me after I’d said I didn’t want anything. I’m still steaming about that, if you couldn’t tell.

[Filbert]

@jtur88

’

Good for you. But your anecdotal effort doesn’t seem to have solved our civilization’s social dysfunction.

Yes, if neither spouse can cook, I blame the woman. Women (and men) should continue to master their traditional gender rules until the other gender assumes enough competence to assume them. It makes no sense to have both genders abandon traditional roles, and just leave them hanging in a vacuum.

What an exceedingly silly idea. So, unless and until they marry a person of the opposite gender, women should be sitting mournfully in their broken down car, wishing they had new shelving, and men should be living off takeaways or suffering from malnutrition in their filthy abode? All adults should be able to do all the things an adult needs to do (assuming they are physically capable), rather than waiting for someone else to come along and fill in.

I don’t iron, because I don’t see the point. If you can see the point, feel free to iron your own stuff. Society will continue with slightly wrinkly clothing just as well.

[Arabella_Flynn]

1. Probably? I think a lot of them know it’s not going to happen, but they live in hope. (I am thinking of you, patron at work who is at two decades older than I am, and perpetually disappointed that complimenting me does not result in me melting into a puddle of amorous goo.) I can recall perhaps two exceptions right off the top of my head, and they were both very, very, openly and obviously gay, which is probably why they felt they were allowed to start off a friendship like that.

2. Politeness. I am also this polite to old women who warble on about things I’m not interested in, and young people of both sexes who apparently need someone to complain to. I have no qualms against creating a scene if they don’t let me walk away when I want to, and where I live, I’m pretty sure that if I, a young woman, screamed bloody murder at the top of my lungs, the resulting rush of help would scare any dangerous nutters away.

3. Sure. Wear earbuds 24/7. I conveniently “don’t hear” a lot of people even when the music is temporary quiet.

4. I have never once in my life given a date, my number, or so much as the time of day to any guy who approached me out of the blue. (Or girl, for that matter, although I have to say the ladies are much better at being subtle and polite.) I have gone out with guys whom I met at a social event, or through volunteering, or in the audience at a show, who chatted with me like I was a human being before we got around to hitting on each other.

5. Personally? As a rule, if I’m interested, I’ll make a pass at you first. If you have to start you’re not going to get anywhere. I’m not opposed to being asked for directions or exchanging some mild complaints about the weather, but I’d love it if there were designated Flirting Zones that I could just not walk into if I don’t feel like being targeted.

6. If the other human has earbuds in, or is reading a book, or is staring at some kind of small computing device, they do not want to talk to you. No exceptions. This would take care of 90% of the annoying interruptions. It is also rude to shout any compliment any racier than “I like your hat.” If you wouldn’t say it to your sainted grandmother, don’t bellow it across the street.

[AHunter3]

Everything jtur88 writes in this thread pisses me off. But at the same time it’s highly useful to have a living breathing Exhibit A to point to whenever I’m trying to discuss gender and run headlong into attitudes like “Where the hell do you get this idea that everyone around you has this Venus-versus-Mars bullshit stuck in their brains? Instead of saying you’re a gurrrl you should just join the rest of us who don’t buy into ludicrous stereotypes”.

• There are plenty of people who think like jtur88, to varying degrees.

• The rest of us having to take them into account in anticipating the behavior and attitudes of people; the act of doing so invariably colors our own interpretations and expectations by gender, even if not to the point that we embrace sexist ideologies in the process.

• Some portion of us dig our intellectual heels in the ground and reject as much gender stereotyping as we can, as much as we are aware of, and in doing so experience friction in our dealings with people who aren’t doing that. A much larger portion of us, I daresay, have a more tolerant mindset, one that sort of includes non-judgmental room for people whose “way of being in the world” includes a lot of gender conformity and sexist expectation of others while still including a non-judgmental room for other people whose “way of being in the world” rejects the confining notions of gender for themselves and rejects sexist expectations overall.

• The result is sort of like averaging two numbers: you get a lot of people walking around in the world who expect male people to be somewhere between androgynous and nonsexist and masculine-conformed and sexist, for a clumsy average of somewhere in between. And likewise for how they perceive female people. And those are the “enlightened ones”, if you see what I mean.

[Nava]

It’s been yoinks since any guy tried to hit on me (or maybe since anybody did it in a way clear enough to get through my complete cluelessness), but

0. why do you assume it’s bad?

1. … I guess… although for some of them, “the near future” was after the wedding. Some of the guys who asked me for a date in unexpected places were a lot more religious than me. Also, there have been times I’ve had a conversation in a bus or subway with a guy where the closest mention of sex was him mentioning his wife’s job, and I remember one which focused exclusively on the results of his research (marine biologist, London subway).

2. I can’t answer for the rest of the planet, but if I laugh I found it funny.

3. Yes.

4. My grandparents met on Tram 19. She wasn’t wearing her glasses, mistook him for a neighbor and pointed him to the only empty seat, which happened to be beside her. He mistook her for an easy target.

5. I don’t think a single one of my dates came from a place that would fall under the definition of “social situation” the OP seems to use. I met guys waiting for the metrorail, I met guys at SCA, I met guys at the gaming club, I went on a couple of dates with a cop who was curious that he’d see me walking (in Miami. Nobody ever walks in Miami), I met a guy at a concert and there was another guy I met in a concert that afterwards became my “concert buddy” (his gf didn’t like the same music we did)… meeting guys in a singles bar is kind of difficult when you never enter one!

6. Gaaaah, as if that whole thing wasn’t complicated enough! NO!

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

@Filbert

What an exceedingly silly idea. So, unless and until they marry a person of the opposite gender, women should be sitting mournfully in their broken down car, wishing they had new shelving, and men should be living off takeaways or suffering from malnutrition in their filthy abode? .

Well that does explain why **jtur **eats raw chicken from the garbage and green curdled expired milk.

[MrLee]

I am a happily married father-of-two; this isn’t really a thread I have any say in but I’ll throw in my 2c anyway…

• in my youth, I never started chatting with an unaccompanied young female in public unless it was a case of exceptional drunkenness or boredom. I was never under any illusions; even if I thought ‘She looks hot!’, I knew my chances of my approaching her and charming her into my bedroom were exactly 0%. I knew, and I am sure she would have by extension - that any such attempts would have been embarrassing and futile.

• I have known particularly charming and good-looking men who are able to chat-up girls with whom they have had no prior contact - but this doesn’t extend to situations like ‘in line for the bus’ or ‘in the supermarket’. Even this has been in situations like pubs and bars, where there is already a kind of implicit social contract. I was a dreadful flirt in my 20s, and managed to screw it up even when girls approached me - which wasn’t often.

• I think that much of the time, guys approaching girls in public have the same appraisal of their rates of success as me (0%) - they just don’t care because they like the idea of chatting to a young and/or attractive girl anyway. The end goal isn’t getting laid, it’s just the experience of talking to someone sexually attractive. Pathetic? Certainly. Un-nerving for the recipient? Evidently.

[Son_of_a_Rich]

@JcWoman

1. When he asked me what kind of music I liked, I said I liked hard rock bands like Judas Preist. His eyes bugged out and he asked if I know what the name Judas Priest referred to. I said yes… and grinned ear to ear watching him beat feet out of there.

Ok, except as a name in a Dylan song, what’s it mean? Is it scatological?

[JcWoman]

It’s a heavy metal band, with a strong flavor of raunchy sex in their lyrics. But that wasn’t what he freaked out about. He was completely going by the name:

Judas - the dude who betrayed Jesus
Preist - (the band spells it that way), a priest is someone who teaches a religious following

So he was thinking I was into satanism or something purely by the connotations of that.

[Treppenwitz]

@jtur88

We’re all looking forward to someone lifting us out of the mire of ignorance and explaining the alternative non-ridiculous theory about how and why gender roles developed and remained so entrenched in nearly all societies.

Girls will be boys, and boys will be girls.
It’s a mixed up, muddled up, shook up world…

Mind you, that was only 48 years ago.

j

[Wendell_Wagner]

The band does not spell it that way:

Judas Priest

[Lizard]

@adaher

… But why is the onus still on men to make the first move? Men’s first move is threatening much of the time. So women should make the first move. The current “rules” of society pretty much demand it. At every step.

I actually get a little uncomfortable when women come on to me. (Which has not happened a lot, but has happened.) When I was younger I had no cultural reference for how to handle the situation or behave, and usually acted like a douchebag. I’m far more confident doing the approaching, though I would never expect anything from a total stranger unless she was giving me serious, unambiguous feedback (which has also happened.) Learning to read situations like this is part of growing up.
I’m now in my 40s, and this whole thing has become much less of an issue; I enjoy women a lot more now, especially emotionally mature women my own age. I do have a lot more sympathy for young women, as I work with quite a few of them now, and have an 18-year-old niece with a huge chest that is impossible to miss. If I had to put up with what they/she tolerates, I’d have lost it long ago.