Women in Non-traditional occupations

Great Debates
1

http://www.uri.edu/affirmative_action/aa_manual.htm

Ok, to prevent people from jumping on me like the ACLU on in-school prayer I’ve decided to preface this post. I am all for equal opportunity. I was a women’s studies minor (sociology major) in college. The women in my life have all been strong-willed women. I am not a caveman. I think some women can be excellent at at anything, just as any man can. It depends on the person.

Now that you’re juices are dripping, awaiting another moronic sacrificial-lamb, I’ll pose my opinion and question. Should enterance standards be lowered in some occupations so that women have equal opportunity? I am a big guy (6’5, 280 lbs.) and I believe that 1) an averaged size woman couldn’t drag my unconcious body up 10 flights of stairs and 2) If I were a deranged looney on a rampage, that an average woman police officer could not stop me. (Average being 5’5, 150 lbs). I am not debating that there are some males of average build that couldn’t either. I am not suggesting that women firefighters or police officers cannont be good at their job. Granted the majority of the population here at SDMB apears to be of the liberal stripe (myself proudly included) I am wondering what the response is to these questions. Should enterance exams be modified (lowered if you will) to allow women equal opportunity to these two job types? Does it scare you that a woman of average build could not heft you out of a buring building? Please keep the firebombing to a minimum. I’m not stupid and I’m not trying to answer whether women are inferior or not. Just seeking intelegent thoughts on this.

2

“I think some women can be excellent at at anything, just as any man can”.

I proofread and still missed this. I meant to say this:

“I think some women can be excellent at anything, just as SOME men can”. Sorry for the double post.

3

That’s why they carry guns.

4

Certainly some average sized women couldn’t, but others could (same as men). As far as the entrance requirements being modified, that depends on what they are being modified from,and what happens after you’ve got the job.There were ,in the past, strict height and weight requirements for law enforcement jobs. They were apparently meant to be an indirect measure of strength,which is a justifiable requirement (don’t want any weaklings), but the height requirements tended to work against certain groups (including women), even for those individuals who had the required attributes.For example, if there’s a height requirement of 5’8", a 5’5" woman couldn’t be hired, even if she worked out and was stronger than the average 5’10" man.These requirements should have been {and mostly were} changed to measure strength directly. If it’s important that you be able to run a mile to get the job, fine, but I have to question how important things like that are when they are never tested again (I’ve seen plenty of cops who are physically out of shape. Apparently,you have to be in good shape only to get the job, not to keep it)
And BTW, the average woman cop, under real-life conditions, will stop the looney just as well as the average male cop, because neither one is going to try to do it alone.

5

At the U.S. Postal Service, the qualified applicant has to be able to lift and carry a 70 lb. bag of mail (yes, that’s a seventy pound bag), and it doesn’t matter which set of gonads the applicant is also carrying around.

Picking up heavy objects, whether it’s a mail bag or a person, depends on leverage and technique, not brute strength. Plenty of tiny little policewomen (and firefighters) are perfectly capable of picking up a big man.

Pepper, you needn’t have the slightest bit of worry that “a woman of average build could not heft you out of a bur[n]ing building?”, because she could, no sweat. :slight_smile:

And as for the “women couldn’t stop a deranged looney” argument, which was used to keep female cops out of patrol cars for years, first of all, sometimes even big strong male cops have trouble stopping deranged loonies. Second, they do all have guns. Third, they also have something called “judo”, which I’m told the women are particularly good at, since they aren’t threatened by having to admit they aren’t big enough and strong enough to use brute force.

Also, the women tend to be better at talking the looney down, since they can’t depend on brute force, and the looney is frequently caught off-balance and his wrath deflected by being presented with a female cop.

I would like to recommend two perfectly fascinating books to you. What Cops Know and Breaking and Entering: Women cops break the code of silence both by Connie Fletcher. She interviewed hundreds of Chicago cops for these books, and they’re real page-turners, not sensationalized, either, just the transcripts of the interviews.

6

lower the entrance requirements for natal care nurses? After all, the male nurses could learn to use bottled milk. I doubt they’ll ever ‘learn’ how to breast feed naturally.

This is the sort of question that seems to mirror what you’re asking about the other jobs. So, men are ‘better’ at brute strength, I guess? If humankind was evolving towards brute strength, honey, the gorilla would be the tops, not us. :slight_smile:

I look at it this way. Firefighting and police officer are two of the most brutal, hard, physically demanding, civilian jobs around. We simply can’t find enough good people to do these jobs as it is. Can we afford to ignore promising aspirants who want to do this nasty but necessary job, for the small amount of pay we can give them, just because some of them don’t have gonads that dangle forth?

That seems nonsensical to me. I admit, I have met a few jobs I couldn’t physically handle. I am only 5’4" tall, average height for American female stats. I can squat only about 55 pounds, on a good day (I’m not in very good physical condition). I was unable to steer a whole wheelbarrel full of wet mortar, one day. But you know what? I later discovered no skilled mason MAKES a whole wheelbarrel full at once - it dries out too fast.

That, and I have far more stamina in heat than 90% of the guys I’ve worked with on manual labor crews. I’m not sure that holds true for a majority of women, though.

So maybe we should just let them TRY? If a woman can’t handle the job, it is extremely unlikely she’ll try to stay in the job, from my own experience.

7

Ziactrice, I like you.

Exactly. Line up the applicants, order them by qualifications, take the best in and worry about the plumbing later.

Some entrance exams are designed not so much to reflect the skills needed in the job as to emphasize desirable qualities in an applicant.

Stupid example: You obviously want your police officers to be in good shape. With this in mind, you design a test (say X push-ups in Y seconds) to filter out the worst Z% of the applicants. This makes sure your applicants will at least be people who have put an effort into keeping fit. (Besides, as testing goes, it’s dirt-cheap and very hard to argue with.)

If you design this test with only male applicants in mind, you run the risk of excluding female applicants who would be able to do the job, but not the push-ups - and that’s a Bad Thing. Did that make sense ?

Anyway, a good police officer needs a plethora of skills besides that of tackling a 200-pound perpetrator. So does a good firefighter or a good soldier.

S. Norman

8

Not that I expect firefighters or, for that matter, soldiers, to tackle 200-pound perpetrators. Please replace said tackling with another highly physical activity in the line of duty of a frirefighter and a soldier, respectively.

Thank you.

9

I don’t think the cops could actually use their guns in such a situation. They are generally told to use the force that their opponent uses. So if a guy trys to tackle the police officer she could use pepper spray or the night stick but not deadly force.

10

Well the big idea is that officers are suppose to avoid using firearms if possible. Unless you’re reaching for a wallet in New York City or something.

Marc

11

Duck Duck Goose “Pepper, you needn’t have the slightest bit of worry that “a woman of average build could not heft you out of a bur[n]ing building?”, because she could, no sweat.”

No sweat, eh? I don’t think this is factual.

"And as for the “women couldn’t stop a deranged looney” argument, which was used to keep female cops out of patrol cars for years, first of all, sometimes even big strong male cops have trouble stopping deranged loonies. Second, they do all have guns. Third, they also have something called “judo”, which I’m told the women are particularly good at, since they aren’t threatened by having to admit they aren’t big enough and strong enough to use brute force.

Also, the women tend to be better at talking the looney down, since they can’t depend on brute force, and the looney is frequently caught off-balance and his wrath deflected by being presented with a female cop."

Excellent points DDG.

Ziactrice “…lower the entrance requirements for natal care nurses? After all, the male nurses could learn to use bottled milk. I doubt they’ll ever ‘learn’ how to breast feed naturally.”

Silly. Off the point.

“So maybe we should just let them TRY? If a woman can’t handle the job, it is extremely unlikely she’ll try to stay in the job, from my own experience.”

Try? Would she get herself/someone else killed while trying?

12

Well, I’ve read these posts and I have to say (yes I’m female by the way) that most women can’t do a lot of the strenuous lifting that most “men” jobs need. I say that only to acknowledge the fact that women are viewed to be only 1 of 2 categories in our world. 1. The thin, lovely, honorable, sweet, angelic woman and 2. The other that no one wants to commend because she doesn’t fit the #1 category. I happent to be a #2 myself. I never enjoyed the frilly little dresses, the constant need of making someone else do something for me, just because I had a cute body or the need for a man to make me feel complete. (I am married with two kids by the way, but I don’t NEED my husband…LOVE and NEED do not mix…more women need to remember this when choosing mates) Anyway, I never fit into the little girly groups at school, didn’t care for their mindset of looking for someone to take care of them…wanted to be self sufficient. So, here I am today. I’ve lifted weights since sixth grade and I currently make my money by halter breaking cattle for beef productions farms which show their prized cattle and groudworking horses. I unload around 1,000 pounds of feed at once on any given day. I haul hay-better than men. I am the pickle jar opener in my family. (haha) I also can bench my husband (he weighs around 130) and I leg press 600. I am much stronger than most men…and could bench press and leg press more the all but four guys on the highschool football team. Women have to desire to be this way, it is natural…but it has to be sought after. I think women should get off their butts and feel strong and liberated from their 98 pound role models on the covers of magazines. A little brute force can be a good thing…especially when you’ve got a 900 pound heifer trying to take you out. Guys, it ain’t all about You and Your qualifications…you just have to be ready to accept the Woman that can handle the job…and I don’t think you are yet.

13

Wranglerette “Guys, it ain’t all about You and Your qualifications…you just have to be ready to accept the Woman that can handle the job…and I don’t think you are yet.”

You sound like a cool woman. I sure as heck ain’t gonna mess with you. For the record, I didn’t say that no women can’t handle a traditionally male job. That would be moronic and untrue. My concern was with getting my unconcious ass dragged out of a building by an average sized woman. I actually know a female firefighter. She’s a triathelete in impossibly good shape, much better shape than me (not that I’m really out of shape). But even she couldn’t drag me up to the helicopter waiting on the roof. I give her crap about bringing help with her if she knows it’s me it trouble.

14

Well, for your information. My family does a lot of farm work. We wash and move water troughs every spring and fall. This last spring while cleaning troughs we all got into a water fight. I decided to take out after hubby. I picked him up (against his will) and packed him over one shoulder to the tack shed…and then proceeded to lock him in it. That was a trip of about 300 feet I guess…no strain on my behalf. He weighs about 130 pounds. My grandfather-in-law has just moved in with my in-laws instead of going to a nursing home. He weighs 180+ and has no use of his legs therefore he’s dead weight. I repeatedly pick him up from under his arms (chest to chest so I can see if there is any pain on his face - he has a bad shoulder) and I pack him to the recliner, to the potty seat, to the bath tub, shoot-anywhere he wants me to take him. Once again, no strain at all. My father is a blacksmith (240+) and one day while shoeing horses with him (yes I do this too) he was joking because horse had sat down on me while I was trimming his hind feet. He had simply rested his butt on my back and now my legs were supporting me and half of the lazy horse…well, I got him back up with no problems and proceeded to make my laughing father hush (he thought it was a kodak moment and opted to go get the camera instead of help me out) Well, he was joshing me about how it must’ve been impossible to get that fat horse off of me…so I strolled over and just hoisted him up and said “No, was quite easy” and sat him back down. I do a lot of the work on the farm. When unloading 50 pound bags of feed I usually have my father-in-law put two on each shoulder and I walk to the shed…no problem. I have power lifted to be able to do this and I enjoy the stares I get from the guys who envy me. I will say that I have sacrificed my girlish body to do this, but the benefits outweight that. I weight 200+ and have no problem doing any activity…I am just massively huge -as stated by my husband. Here’s another thought for ya…on my honeymoon (father is also a preacher so I was “pure”) when undressing…the first thing my hubby said when he saw my backside was “What a back on a gal!” so there guys…I can handle it all…if you want to know if genetics play a part in this-yes. I am very proud of my 19 inch biceps and I wouldn’t trade my strength to be able to fit in any little itsy bitsy bikini…I am more of a woman now than I’ve ever been…and yes I could pack someone up a flight of stairs and out of a burning building…I’ve done it “barn style”. I’m glad to be able to enlighten you guys that there are a few of us wonder women out in the world and don’t let your jaw hit the ground when you walk by us…it’s not very becoming.

15

I promise, I won’t ever mess with you. But how realistic is it to assume you represent most women? Just because one woman (or man) can do something doesn’t mean all, or even most, can. You dear, are who I want rescuing me. Move here and follow me around please.

16

Pepperjett,
It’s true that some {even most} average sized women wouldn’t be able to carry you up 10 flights of stairs alone, but how many average sized men would be able to? And what size person do we really expect a firefighter to be able to carry ten flights alone? I know a couple of people who are 6’11 and weigh well over 300lbs. I don’t know if anyone could carry them up 10 flights of stairs alone,and I know no one expects any firefighter to carry one of those people who can’t leave their house without a wall being cut out.And that’s really the first question in setting requirements. If you expect a firefighter to be able to carry a 300 lb person 10 flights, fine. But then, actually test the persons ability to do that (say ,have them carry a 300 lb dummy up 10 flights).Don’t just decide anyone under 5’7" and 170 lbs is not strong enough to get further in the hiring process,while someone taller and heavier is.You may very well eliminate the small, but strong person who could do the job, while accepting the hulking couch potato who washes out of the first day of training.

I could be wrong, but I took this to mean try to make it through training,since the kinds of jobs you’re talking about usually require that a person successfully completes training (the hiring standards generally determine who gets to enter the training).

17

I agree with letting everyone try. A little embarassment goes a long way…those who can’t cut it won’t get very far. I had to do this at a job once. I told the owner to let me work for two weeks-don’t pay me-just let me work. At the end If I don’t out-work every guy here…don’t pay me anything and I’ll leave…Needless to say after two weeks two men were fire (because I could do both their jobs) and I was promoted as team leader in that area. I’ve often put my neck on the line to “toot my own whistle” and I ejoy doing it. I do believe that most women aren’t very capable of heavy lifting, but I also know that most men aren’t either. I’m not a hulk by any means, I still look sweet and womanly…just not overly sexy…but somehow even I dwarf most men. My husband is MUCH smaller than me, my father-in-law and I are about evenly matched-yet my endurace often beats him. I would also like to acknowledge that if this world didn’t have men and catalogues telling women they had to be 90 pound, anorexic sex kittens to get a good job (education not required by most) then this world would be a better place. I have been hunting for a less strenuous job (because two kids require a lot of me at the end of a day and a hard job just isn’t wanted at the moment) so I’ve been looking at secretary or clerk jobs. I type 80 wpm and have a lot of experience, but I’m turned away for the prettier women…now that really ticks me off! I think the world is still to biased because of the “men” who run things to allow women the freedom of mind it takes to “build a better you”. I run into complications all the time. The looks at the grocery store, the “lesbian” jokes, the “you’d be pretty if you were smaller” talks…it’s a load of society based standards that women feel fenced in with. Most think they have to adhere to these stupid “rules” and live a life of domestic dullness and clench the arm of the “ever powerful” male figure which really doesn’t do all that much cause it’s all in our minds. Anyway, I’m rambling now…I agree that there aren’t a lot of women out there capable of it…but you guys are too hard on the women that can do it…so after this debate when you’re out on the street and you see a female weightlifter or “amazon” and you think inside “freak…ugh” just remember she could be saving your ass someday.

18

Would a man? Do people commonly get killed in these occupations? Would they definitely get killed if no one tried? Yes. So.

It would seem to be more logical to TRY and save folks from the burning building, than not to try at all. I certainly don’t understand your point in the latter comment. You seem to think there are ‘more than enough’ big, supremely strong men to fill these positions, which as far as I’ve researched, isn’t true.

Calling me silly and disregarding the nurse comment as ‘off the point’ only means you were avoiding my point. I just tried to turn the situation around to reflect your own small-minded attitude back at your gender. Apparently, the shoe is not so comfortable when YOU are the one to wear it, from your reaction.

Are there jobs men just can’t HACK because they are men? You betcha!

Do some men do really well at these jobs because not all men are cast in the same mold, not in the physical sense, but mentally and spiritually? Yes.

I have lost any respect I might have still had toward you when you said you give your lady ‘friend’ shit about getting you out of the building. Frankly, if I were ever in such dire strait, I’d definitely prefer her to you.

Size doesn’t matter, dedication does.

19

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Ziactrice *
lower the entrance requirements for natal care nurses? After all, the male nurses could learn to use bottled milk. I doubt they’ll ever ‘learn’ how to breast feed naturally./

Ziactrice,

I am somewhat confsed. When have hospitals not allowed male nurses to practice natal care? One of my closest friends’ husband is a natal care nurse, and I don’t recall his inability to lactate being an issue. Perhaps we are from different regions and terminology is being interchanged. In most places, I thought as long as you have a degree you can be a natal-care nurse, regardless of your gender. Other than that confusing point, I agree with you.
I don’t know about anyone else, but if it were me in the “burning building”, I wouldn’t care who, or what, for that matter, carried me to safety, as long as they got me out of there! Same goes for police officers, masons, cab drivers, cooks, janitors, trash collectors, (I could go on for ever!) Do I thnk the "standrds should be lowered for women? NO! But by the same token, neither should they be for people of ethnicities that are consdiered “minority”, and we have ALL seen it happen, as much as some of us would like to close our eyes! (I lost out on a full music scholarship because my competition was of a different race). If a person is qualified to do the job, why should race gender or anything else be a deterrant? IMHO people are always whining about the response time for fire/police/ambulances, so why should they care if it was a man or woman, as long as they took care of the situation at-hand and did so in a timely and efficient manner.

20

This is something I feel very strongly about.

Make the minimum qualification what is absolutely needed for the job, then disregard gender. Lowering physical standard to admit women is not helpful (IMO), it is just another for of “special treatment”.