Oh, don’t say that. Then the guys will start in on how offensive such talk of things like “testosterone poisoning” is. Not all men are assholes you know. But when they are assholes, it’s really the woman’s fault. If women weren’t so… um… something, then guys wouldn’t feel the irresistable compulsion to catcall.
The ugly fact is, because you are a man and they were women, your safety wasn’t threatened in the way many women are when catcallers won’t leave them the fuck alone.
This still giving all the power to the harassing assholes. It still puts the onus on women to change their behavior and go about their lives differently because these men are incapable of being decent members of society. We’re not talking about whether or not people should lock their doors, or women in first floor apartments should sleep with their windows open, we’re talking about doing things like walking down the street, waiting for public transit, eating lunch in a restaurant. In other words: living life.
Yesterday, an acquaintance had some man sitting behind her whispering filthy things at her while she was on a packed commuter train. When she didn’t respond, he reached out and started petting her neck, reaching down into the back of her blouse to touch her skin. She turned around in her seat and yelled “Why are you touching me? You don’t have any right to put your hands on me!” And the rest of the trip she was the one getting the stinkeye, and felt threatened enough that she had 911 predialed on her cell phone just in case something happened as she walked through the parking lot when she got off at the station. On a standing room only car, not a single person came to her defense, offered to trade seats with her (or even trade her for standing room) or told the creepy molesting fuckwit (who was by all appearances a businessman, in a “nice” suit and tie) to keep his damned hands to himself.
But by all means, I’m sure she should’ve just done something different when he starting whispering at her about the private parts of her body that he wanted to touch.
Are we talking past each other, or what? I’m saying that these things you listed don’t make much of a difference. I’ve been harassed while jogging, I’ve been harassed in jeans and a T-shirt, I’ve been harassed dressed to go out with friends, I’ve been harassed coming home from fucking work in a fucking suit. This happens to women of all shapes, heights, and ethnicities. Aside from the question of why I should change my life around to accomodate someone else’s apparent lack of social skills, there’s the issue that it doesn’t work. Nothing I do will change the fact that some people are assholes.
Yeah it’s one of things you have no choice but to live with. But that doesn’t mean I can’t complain about it. And it doesn’t mean that I wouldn’t have felt a small twinge of satisfaction if those ladies had grabbed the right jerk.
So how about if I get abuse from other males, from anyone? Which I might add I have? To be honest I probably didn’t realise the extent this seems to happen in America as it definitely doesn’t happen that often in England - it does happen but not enough for the 8 or 9 woman (and my wife I just IM’d) to be anywhere near as vitriolic about it as you seem to be and in fact most of them said that unless they were being actually abused verbally (as opposed to just whistled at) they would probably smile and take it as a compliment.
My point is that whether you are getting catcalls/verbal abuse from anyone you shouldn’t attack them. This whole thread started because three woman (admittedly from Grimsby) battered some poor guy for no reason which I think is all the justification you need to demonstrate why you should only employ violence as a last resort.
Fighting ignorance indeed.
Look, I’ve never beat up anyone who’s yelled at me on the street*, but a lot of men would respond to the kind of shit women get on a regular basis with physical violence. If a Guy A followed Guy B for a block and called him a “stuck up bitch,” I don’t have a lot of doubt that Guy A would get his ass kicked. And I wouldn’t boohoo for Guy A either. This is not to say that physical retaliation should be the response to harassing or threatening words, but it is to say that this is purely sexist bullying because a man wouldn’t do this to another man for fear of a righteous ass-kicking. In most cases, the woman can’t beat the crap out of the guy who is harassing her, even if she wanted to. I once had a guy threaten to have his dog attack me if I didn’t speak to him. :eek: So we just have to stand there, and let it happen. Ignoring them doesn’t work, flipping the bird doesn’t work, politely asking to be left alone doesn’t work.
So clearly, this it pisses me off. And even though the OP doesn’t describe what we’re talking about here, as the conversation has digressed quite a bit, I would be a liar if I said I wouldn’t grin uncontrollably if I read a story about a woman beating up a guy who followed her and harassed her, and the like. I would get one hell of a vicarious thrill.
So… Can someone answer the goddamned question already.
With what frequency does a woman have to be followed, screamed at, name-called, catcalled, demeaned, whistled at, screamed at from car windows, generally harassed in public by strange men while simply living life before it’s okay for her to be *fucking pissed *about it?
*After experiencing about an hour of super-ultra-harassment in a bar, a guy decided he hadn’t demeaned me quite thoroughly enough, so he grabbed my ass. I grabbed a whiskey tumbler, and smashed it into his face. I’m not sure if he would have hit me back or not, because someone jumped in between us. But this was not in response to mere words, I had been physically accosted.
Easy. Once. Happy?
What I am saying is that ‘being pissed’ and advocating violence are totally different. You think that I’ve had the option of kicking the asses of every man that has hassled me or given me shit? That even if I could that I should? I have been angry every time I have been helpless in battering three shades of shit out of people giving me grief - which has happened more to me than it has to my wife, I’ve lived in far rougher neighbourhoods you see. To be honest the more I think about it the more parallels I see with catcalling. You say woman don’t talk about it because it’s embarassing - how about the guys who’ve been hassled/threatened by other guys and have been unable to respond either through being outnumbered, scared or simply not being the violent type? I’ve always thought how much I’d like to have kicked their ass(es) but I’m glad I didn’t just in case I wound up paralysing some innocent party.
Basically my point is get angry, defend yourself if attacked etc. but don’t advocate vigilantism because sometimes this happens.
This is seriously, well… weird. I’m 38 years old, I’ve lived my entire life in urban and just-barely-suburban areas, and yeah, sometimes people yell inappropriate things, but what the hell is this crazed escalating anger and following thing that ya’ll are on about? I’m not saying it never happens, it clearly HAS happened to some of you, but I’m a little skeptical about the frequency.
I don’t drive. I walk or take public transportation everywhere, at all times of day and night, and I only recall feeling actually *threatened *once, by a guy who was *clearly *Teh Crazy.
Maybe I’m just peculiarly secure, but my experience is that most people aren’t crazy, or violent, or going to give you all that hard a time in public. Don’t get me wrong, anyone who actually *touches *you should be hit with all the howling and violence you can muster. But *saying *stuff isn’t assault, and words have only the power you assign to them.
Guys yell stuff. It happens. I’m not saying it’s okay, but it seems to me that what actually tilts the balance of power is allowing them to make you feel bad. Fuck that. Honestly, I’d suggest that if you’re frequently harrassed, you’re not exuding sexuality so much as fear. When a guy yells something at me, I ignore him or tell him to get lost as appropriate, and then I forget it and continue along with my day. I’ve never had one flip out on me. I get the occasional “Bitch” tossed at my back, but they stay put. If the sort of behavior detailed in this thread is really as common as suggested, then why do they do that? I’m guessing it’s because I’m not giving them the intimidated reaction they’re going for. I’m not flinching, I’m not cowering, I’m not even adjusting my gait. I’m no fun.
DianaG! 
It seems like forever since I saw your name. Nice post as well.
Lib
My default expression was not a scowl–it was simply expressionless. But apparently that wasn’t good enough for some people–I needed to have an expression that was pleasing to them. If you saw a man on the street who was not smiling, would you tell him to smile, because he’d look much more handsome? I sincerely doubt it.
This is exactly my point. Either you tolerate the abuse, or you escalate it to physical violence. The former is unfair, and the latter is an overreaction. There is no middle ground, and there needs to be.
This can’t be emphasized enough.
I often do, on my way home. I still occasionally hear/see people hollering at me through the music, though.
Maybe I can work up a nice shuffle-step routine I can use to defuse the situation the next time I get catcalled. Then I can finish by winking and asking if massa’ enjoyed the show.
NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER FUCKING FAG KIKE
CAN’T TOUCH ME THEY’RE JUST WORDS
Heh, and we’re overreacting? As much as this chaps my hide, I can’t say I was this upset the first time I noticed this. It didn’t take long, though, before I was like, “Jesus Hussein Kee-rist, is it illegal for women do go outside alone without being yelled at and/or followed?”
Well then don’t say we’re crazy if we’d take a bit of pleasure in an asshole, who bullies a random woman for simply being outside, getting what’s his. We’re not talking about the post in the OP. Those stupid drunks went full-on gangsta on someone for whistling, and didn’t even get the right guy. But sometimes people get angry, and these people wouldn’t mind if the source of their anger were smacked around a few times. Sue me.
Some people are A+. “This is my experience, so surely it is yours.” I’ve never been afraid of people who bother the shit out of me outside (except fuckhead with the dog). If you would describe my body language as “exuding fear” or “intimidated,” no bullshit, you would be the first. This has fuckall to do with a woman’s body language. You think the guy who yelled at my from my car window on Saturday was thinking, “Hmm, that girl on the bicycle over there looks weak. I don’t usually bother women I don’t know this way, but she looks so… scared.” Please. They do this because they’re tools.
I can’t speak for everyone else here, but my response to this kind of assholery is always to ignore them. Most go away, others do not. The ones who persist get the bird. Some get even more persistent than that! Holy shit, being ignored, then having the bird flipped is not enough for some men! Some don’t go away until you scream back and cause a scene. I’m sick of it, already. Having a vagina in public is not a crime. I am so very glad that you’re one of the lucky ones who this happens to rather infrequently. Maybe I can sign up for your Super Confidence! class, that stops assholes from being assholes.
Shot From Guns, do you advocate physical confrontation or law enforcement involvement everytime someone yells “nigger”, “fag”, or “kike”?
Wait… I’m confused. Does this happen all the time, or are the people who do it outside of the social norm? Can we get a venn diagram or something going here?
MeanOldLady, you miss my point. Firstly, the guy yelling from his car is not a threat, or anyone you’ll ever have to deal with in any other context, so who gives a shit? Secondly, there’s no way to stop assholes from being assholes. All you can do is not give them the power to ruin your day.
It doesn’t have to happen infrequently in order for the people who do it to be outside the norm. If it happens as often as twice a day, everyday, I would still like to think the men who carry on this way are in the minority. I pass by 100 dudes between home and work.
Anything that happens twice a day, every day, is pretty normal. Again, I’m not saying it’s okay, I’m just saying that it’s probably not cause for alarm.
Wait, some men are actually offended by suggestions that they should be castrated for the sins of their sex? That proves their guilt!
You should probably stop this crazy person from posting on your account:
Actually no, we’re getting conflicting reports from women and are just curious as to how widespread it actually is.
Beating up a dude because another dude whistled at you is completely and totally unacceptable. The crime here was perpetrated by WOMEN against MEN, and you’re trying to turn it into a, “feel sorry for the poor oppressed women.”, but this thread isn’t about women being oppressed it’s about men being oppressed.
Sorry, but no. The guy in the original story was the victim of a crime, but he wasn’t oppressed. Oppression is the harming of a group of people by society or by a significant portion of society, not a couple of jerks beating up someone else.
Yes, it is normal, but I would like to think the men who do it are in the minority of men. But yes, you’re right, I have little control over the assholery of other people, and should probably cool my jets about it. The funny thing is I don’t really get upset about a whole lot. True story: About two weeks ago, some woman in her car came whipping around the corner, paying no heed to the stop sign, and almost hit me on my bike. I jumped off, sacrificed my Schwinn to the gods for fear of being killed, and crossed my fingers that my bike didn’t get run over. She swerved, nobody was crushed by the weight of the vehicle, but I was briefly scared and annoyed my this woman’s lack of disregard for traffic signs. When I told my friend about it, she told me should would have yelled, “Watch where you’re going, you stupid bitch!” To be honest, I didn’t really care. She was a stupid bitch, but meh. I was just glad my pants weren’t torn. What’s the point of this story? None, really. No, wait, I remember. People often get upset about things they can’t control (we’re human), and different people get upset over different things. Running me over with your car isn’t one of my buttons, apparently, but harassing women on the street is. Go figure.
You should probably learn how to take a joke. My point was that this kind of crap pisses me off. I unfortunately had to explain to people that I do not honestly advocate MURDER, since hyperbole goes unrecognized 'round these parts. I will also point out, that I was not actually going to find these women’s names and home addresses, and send them chocolates.
But that’s not true. Sometimes they’re not a threat. They yell stuff, you ignore them, they drive away.
And sometimes they are a threat. Sometimes they yell stuff, you ignore them. They stop the car and get out and suddenly it’s become a physical threat.
Each situation started out the same for me: Walking around in a public area. From my point of view, when the guy initially yells, I don’t know if he’s going to drive away or going to become more threatening.