As I’ve said earlier, I think environment and social norms from city to city vary greatly. I never got harassed in San Francisco. I was regularly harassed in Brooklyn.
And I’ve never been harassed in Brooklyn. Next?
Of course. The best solution would be if men just stopped the bad behavior. But is that realistic? We could raise our sons not to do that. But how does that help MOL today? The thing is that the jerks are still out there.
I’m basing my entire argument here, BTW, on what experts have said about how to keep yourself from becoming a victim of mugging. They say stuff like walk more confidently and be more aware of your surroundings. Does that sound like appeasing muggers? Does telling muggers that mugging is wrong sound like a workable solution?
Jebus, before I could hit submit, people came up with responses that were better than mine. So yeah, what they said!
Meh, depends on where you live, whether or not you’re alone, how often you walk, etc. It NEVER happens to me when I’m with my husband. Never ever evah, not even once! Not a coincidence. It also happened less when I drove to work. Not a lot of opportunity to bother me between my front door and my car. It also happens less in lily-white, everyone’s polite and smiles Minnesota than it did in, holy shit, this is a war-zone Los Angeles. I’ll bet if you took a poll of similar women (same area, and all that stuff), the degree would be very similar.
Also, I’m not saying all catcallers are alike in every single way, but I am saying they are not at all particular, and the women they choose to heckle aren’t special. Seriously, when a guy heckles you, do you think you’re the only one? The kind of guy who does this probably Hey Babys women until his throat is sore. Also, some men are more likely to go away when ignored than others. Some back off with silence, or bird flippage, and some lose control of their sphincters and go apeshit on you.
No, we aren’t powerless, but we aren’t responsible for other people’s asshole behavior, either. And it’s not on us to change, it’s on them. Or it’s on us as a society to change them, not change ourselves.
This is not on the main point and I’m not going to continue it further, but in my opinion, the kind of thinking that makes a man say “It’s acceptable for me to harass this woman in public” is the same kind of thinking that makes him say “it’s acceptable for me to assault this woman”. The idea that acting on his sexual desire for her is more important than whether or not she will be receptive to it.
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This is very true. I’ve also been treated like an object while being asked the time, or while he was holding a door for me.
This is tortured logic that is quite common. The idea that we have some obligation not to offend people by doing something that doesn’t offend everyone is silly. Everyone is offended by something and often what we take offense to is completely idiosyncratic and the reasons we take offense to it are hidden away somewhere in our psyche’s. Some women like being whistled at.
You’re the only one trying to speak for all women. You’re extrapolating more from what I said than what I said. I didn’t make any comments about ALL women I made a comment about SOME women.
You can’t have an a priori vote of ‘no’ before someone gives you attention, it doesn’t work like that. That’s a completely unreasonable view of the way social interactions work. When you initiate attention with someone you can’t know beforehand whether or not they will approve of that attention. It’s not the whistling that is the problem, it’s the possibility of negative attention that follows being rebuffed. What you all are doing is judging every man who whistles at a woman by the criteria of the stalker, assuming the worst case scenario.
It’s positively absurd to think that a guy who is whistling at someone is cut from a similar cloth as a rapist.
Also, even if theoretically speaking Diana is right, and it is her behavior that’s fending off harassers, why should I have to act like Diana when I go out if I don’t want to be hassled? I’m Judith, and I act like Judith because it’s who I am, and I like myself and the way I act.
No, no, no, no, no, no, no! I have no idea why people think I’m saying that. I’m not. I never once said that. Not. Once.
Let me try stating the exact opposite of what I’ve been try to say: Eh, there’s nothing you can do. Sucks to be you. Oh well.
Again, you’re doing that because it’s what makes you feel good about yourself. Not because you were harrassed. Do you just never consider yourself a victim and maybe can’t relate?
I take your point about muggers–ultimately a victim is not to blame but in some situations precautions can be taken. But walking to work in the middle of the day?
Mugging is different from sexual objectification. There aren’t dozens of people in the street every day in broad daylight eyeing up a woman’s purse, leering at wallets, and calling out suggestive phrases about ATM cards. A person is probably being unreasonable if she is walking around terrified of being mugged all the time, and she has some control over preventing the completion of a mugging. In that case, the “stop acting like a victim” bit is at least arguably on point.
But we’re not talking about muggings. We’re talking about a range of behavior which starts at, I don’t know, a casual glance at one’s lips, and which ends at sexual assault. At some point on that spectrum, there’s a line between acceptable and unacceptable. Everybody has a little bit of a different perspective on where to draw the line. Nobody* thinks a rape victim isn’t a victim, and nobody* thinks that a man who looks at a woman in a bikini as she walks by on the beach is a rapist. The problem is, this behavior is going on ALL the time. So no matter where you draw the line, there has to be some kind of subconscious monitoring going on, because at all times the difference is one of degree, not one of kind. That guy’s looking at my boobs. I wonder if that car’s honking at me. What did that guy just say at me? This gentleman is holding the door and smiling - thank you, sir.
In my opinion, at least, the fact that the line is so blurry is reason to be overly cautious about doing things like making accusations of false victimhood. Because, if you’re really willing to put yourself in those shoes, it’s pretty fucking uncomfortable.
*these aren’t actually true, but let’s be optimistic.
Not anymore.
That’s the thing – are the two things really all that different? Both are forms of unwanted attention. If a slight shift in body language can deter one, why is it unreasonable to think that it might deter the other? Maybe it won’t, but why can’t the question even be considered?
And does walking with more confidence really rob you of your personality? Does standing up straighter really let the terrorists win?
I completely agree, and thanks for making such clear and thoughtful posts, Jimmy.
One of my favorite blogs just posted on the false mugging analogy, here: Oh, One More Thing:
Most of these guys just seem like dogs who chase cars. If they caught one they wouldn’t know what to do with it.
I know that sexual assault is a big deal and I have been the victim of it (by a stranger) but I view that as a relatively rare event. The average guy who yells things probably isn’t going to go up to me and grab me so for me that’s not scary.
Um, thanks?
Would you like it if I said that getting pissed off by catcalls was a sign of you being a constant victim? Or that it was an example of your confidence being too high, like you’re too good for some guy to whistle at?
For the love of tamales at new year! 1) Walking with confidence does not deter catcallers. 2) Yes, yes it does let the terrorists win. If a bully promised to stop harassing you if you stopped wearing those goofy shoes, and you stopped, the terrorists win! I don’t negotiate with fucking terrorists! 3) Walking with confidence does not deter catcallers. It does not, not, not, freaking not!
Why do you have in your mind that women who get harassed must be some timid little mousy thing? Enough already.
So let me get this straight. There is absolutely no coping strategy in the world that would ever work. It’s all completely random and that’s that. And even if there were, it would be a net loss for you to use it.
Am I understanding you correctly?
This makes me think that you have no idea why a projection of strength deters a mugger. Do you think it’s magic? The power of positive thought?
The opportunist mugger or assailant is just that – an opportunist. If he perceives that a prospective target will give him trouble, leading to the potential consequence of getting caught or harmed, he’ll look elsewhere. No so with the catcaller, the harasser, the shouter of obscenities and insults. He knows that there are no consequences for his actions, no matter the disposition of his target.
I have a serious question for you folks.
If something offends some people and makes other people feel good, what criteria should we use to eliminate it from the social lexicon? How do we know when it is something that is not ok even though some people appreciate it?
It seems to me that some people are of the view that if it offends some people that the opinions of the offended overrule the opinions of those who take it as a compliment.
Yes, they’re really that different. Arson is also a form of unwanted attention. The difference between a mugger and your typical offensive catcaller is that the mugger has to physically accost the woman to get what he wants. A completed sexual assault is not the only way a woman can be victimized.
Have you really never ever seen the way men act around an attractive woman walking by herself? Standing up straight and walking around confidently is exactly the sort of thing that a woman would be inclined to avoid doing if she was trying to avoid sexual attention.
No? I mean, I really don’t think you are. It’s not random at all. You are just confusing cause and effect. A woman who feels like a victim of sexual harassment probably doesn’t feel that way because there’s something wrong with her feelings.
mswas, ask the women who take it as a compliment whether they’d prefer to go the next day without such compliments if it was up to them.
Well, I usually take it as a compliment, and I don’t think I’d care either way.
Hey, maybe I am a stuck up bitch. I’ve been informed of such by a several guys who I’ve ignored or rejected, so you may be on to something. I do kinda think I’m too good for that shit. I think everyone is. I don’t think any woman should expect to be pestered by strange men on the street for committing the offense of having a vagina. “So it goes,” you may say, but I still think it’s quite fucked up, and is not flattering at all.