You’re either a killer fox that gets heckled to death every time you step outside your front door or you are way too thin skinned.
The two most highly prized traits in the human race are strength/power in males – physical or mental – and beauty in women. Men have to worry about getting challenged by other males, especially if they are with beautiful women, and women have to put up with sometimes unwanted sexual interest. It’s called life.
I’m not actually saying you’re stuck up. I’m saying it’s just as fucked up for me to call you conceited or whatever for you attitude, as it is for you to say I have low self confidence for mine.
You know, you should probably stop trying to imply that just because I’m not especially bothered or threatened by catcalling, that I think it’s cute or I find it flattering or I think it makes me special. I sure as hell never said that.
I can’t remember where the line came from, but it applies; “I don’t like it. I don’t hate it. I… *nothing *it.”
Again, you’re welcome to feel however you like, but to imply that I’m some kind of silly attention whore bimbo while *you *are the REAL, STRONG, CONFIDENT woman who nonetheless feels constantly threatened and insists that there’s nothing you can do about it, pisses me the fuck off.
Agreed. But let’s pretend – just for a moment – that the strategies that can be used to avoid a mugging can also be used to avoid a violent rape. I don’t think that that’s an unreasonable assumption. Now you may argue (and quite convincingly) that sexual harassment is on a continuum from simple leering to violent rape. If a particular strategy is effective at diffusing the worst end of the continuum, should it be abandoned because it’s ineffective at diffusing other points along the continuum? Or would that be folly?
And should we assume that since that strategy only works for only one part of the continuum, that there exist no other strategies for other situations?
Well, actually, that’s not quite what I’ve observed, but let’s go with that as exactly what happens on a consistant basis. Let’s pretend that that’s true, oh, say, 75% of the time. What you’re saying is that if a woman slouches and acts mousy she’ll avoid sexual attention. Couldn’t the slouching be used as a coping strategy then? No, no woman should ever have to do that. But if it works, shouldn’t it at least be an option?
So what’s the variable then?
Pipe down, and read the thread before commenting. Nobody’s a killer fox, nobody’s thin-skinned. I don’t like being sexually harassed, and people finding it to be okay. Fuck me running.
I have no idea where your confidence level is, to be honest, I just find it odd that anyone would interpret this as “Oh, this just means I have a hot body! I’m glad the boys noticed.” Yeah, well, I don’t derive any satisfaction or ego-boosts from dipshits bothering me on the street. All I think is, “That guy is an ass.”
There were probably some women who enjoyed having their asses pinched at work. At some point that was declared inappropriate. Do they miss it? Maybe, maybe not. There are still places they can go to get that satisfaction, places where it is acceptable and appropriate. The rights of employees to not be fondled at work do outweigh the desires of those who take it as a compliment.
Well, to be honest, it usually gets done when I’m wearing something kind of sexy, and I guess I can’t help thinking that I’m looking good. It usually doesn’t happen when I’m dressed not so nicely. It’s not like my entire source of feeling good about myself comes from random dudes on the street–it’s just a confirmation of what I already knew.
No, you didn’t say you found it flattering, but Freudian did. Yes, I realize you’re not the same person, so I’m sorry if it seems I was equating your statements.
What I’m saying I don’t buy this “Oh, these women just need to hold their heads high, and the nonsense will stop” load of shit. No, it won’t. These cretins who bother women on the street don’t stand around, waiting for a particular kind of woman to walk by, then pounce. They’re just shitbags who do it to a lot of people, regardless of portrayed confidence, appearance, manner of dress, etc. Now whether or not you’re bothered by it is a different story entirely. I am. You’re not.
As a wild guess, I’m gonna go with having been sexually harassed.
:rolleyes:
If a fourth-grader stays inside at recess to read, or hovers right around the teacher on playground duty, it’s an effective deterrent to bigger kids taking his lunch money on the playground. The strategy works, but I think we can all agree that it’s a fucked-up world in which that strategy is advocated for the kid. Ignore/avoid them and they’ll leave you alone sounds great in theory, but we all know perfectly well that it doesn’t stop the problem–at best it shifts the assholes’ assholery to someone else.
Not that you’ll respond to this, any more than anyone has responded to the questions about how this sort of bullshit is different and less deplorable than harassing black people for being black. I find that lack of response very revealing–nobody has an answer for why it’s different and less deplorable because you all know good and damn well it’s not.
I think this is a specious comparison. I don’t understand what this has to do with either work or being violated physically?
I don’t really see it as harassing behavior, though. Some of it is–the guys following you, etc. But if it’s just a comment or a whistle, is that really on the level of racial harassment?
It takes just as long to call a black person the n-word as it does to call me a cunt. How is that not equivalent?
/edit: They’re derogatory comments made to people in a less powerful group for no other reason than that. I don’t see how you can see them as being that different.
If a guy calls you a cunt, then that’s different. I just mean a guy whistling or saying you look sexy or trying to engage you in conversation isn’t the same as hurling a racial epithet.
A racial slur is just a comment.
Scooped, on edit. But I agree with Vihaga’s edit. Also, trying to engage someone in polite conversation is different than a whistle, which is different than catcalling.
No, sure, it makes sense to look strong to avoid getting physically attacked. But I don’t think the main problem with catcalling and other objectification is that it might lead to literal rape. And looking confident might be a good thing to do just on its own merits, but I don’t think it addressed the main phenomenon at issue in this thread, which is that part of the spectrum of sexual interaction that we don’t all agree on.
My feeling is that you answered your own question - no woman should have to do that. Having established that, I’m going to resist telling a woman that’s what she should do. I think every woman can decide for herself whether she wants to wear a hooded sweatshirt and baggy warmup pants to go to the grocery store, or whether she’d prefer to dress the way she likes and reserve her right to complain about sexual harassment on internet message boards. I don’t think she ever waives her right to feel like she’s being victimized, is my main concern here.
My opinion is it’s mostly just individuality and acculturation. Everybody’s buttons are a little different. If I call my brother stupid, he’ll think it’s funny. If I call him fat, he’ll think it’s hilarious. If I call him unsophisticated, it will probably really offend him. Doesn’t make much sense, but it’s his prerogative. I don’t feel as though the women who are really insulted by a whistle should stop being insulted any more than I think the ones who aren’t should start being insulted. The only constant in the equation is that the objectification is abusive.
It’s not a particularly unlikely answer if I ignore or rebuff the original catcall.
Is saying crude things about my secondary sex characteristics that much better? They’re still commenting on my gender like it’s the significant thing.
Even shouting out a “complimentary” race-related comment is socially unacceptable, because it’s not acceptable to comment on someone’s race as though it’s the only or the important thing about them. I don’t see why people think gender should be different.
Well, are we allowed to see that people are attractive to us and note it? Obviously most men are going to notice that women are attractive as opposed to men. I just don’t see it as them trying to keep women down–it seems more like some guys notice women are hot and are bad at expressing it.
I think there’s a really huge difference between noticing (personally) that someone is attractive, and communicating “hey, I think you’re hot!” to a stranger in public. I check out guys all the time on the street, but I don’t go “Hey baby, hey! Work those jeans!” or even whistle at them.
People note things to themselves all the time; that’s their business. It’s when they assume everyone else wants their opinion that it’s the problem. A guy assuming that I should give enough of a shit about his opinion of my appearance that I want to hear it is just as much a sexist asshole as a guy who thinks it’s a compliment when he tells someone, “you’re well spoken for a black man” is a racist asshole. It brings sex and race into the forefront of the interaction, which is a horribly rude thing to do to a stranger, in my opinion.
I guess the difference between Freud and I boil down (mostly) to this:
I don’t think it’s commentary on the women’s hotness. Unattractive women get catcalled too.
If it were, I still don’t like guys being shitbags to me. You think I’m cute, and want to let me know? Then say it like a human being, and more importantly, like I’m a human being. Do NOT whistle at me. I’m not your dog, I am not flattered. Do NOT throw a hissy fit when I don’t respond to your sophomoric and rude advances. Do NOT, EVER, under any circumstances follow me. Ever.
Yes, I find that sexist. Following is obviously worse than whistling and Hey Babying, but they’re both sexist to me. It’s not a cute little “Hello.” Men would not do this to other men, I figure partly because he’d likely get his ass kicked for pestering someone that way.