…which is because, as Jimmy said so well, the objectification is inherently abusive, even if an individual woman doesn’t feel abused by it. Her reaction to the behavior doesn’t change the fact of the behavior.
Well, sure. And nobody’s saying that quietly noticing someone’s attractiveness is the same as dry anal rape. But it’s a continuum.
So what you’re saying is that if I don’t feel abused or threatened, it’s just because I’m too stupid to know better? Go Dworkin Feminism!!!:rolleyes:
Who the hell said that?
If someone who I know has no power to harm me threatens me, and I don’t feel threatened, did they not make the threat?
The point is that one person’s reaction isn’t necessarily related to how we define the action.
How does this *not *imply that if I just weren’t so blinded by the patriarchy, I’d have the good sense to feel abused?
Once again, slurs, threats, physical confrontation, all abusive. “Objectifying” whistles? Not so much.
That doesn’t answer the question at all.
The thinking here is that it doesn’t matter what neighborhood one is in, or what city one is in, or how the woman looks, or how she dresses, or walks, or smiles (or not), or anything else. It’s all completely random. But by that thinking, in the course of a year every woman on the planet will have been harassed about the same number of times. But clearly, some women get harassed a lot, some only a little, and some not at all. And that’s consistently, year after year.
Now whether you’d like to admit it, there has to be some reason for that. I’m trying to get at what that reason is. I’m not trying to assign blame, I’m not saying that the victims deserve it, and for fucks sake one more time I’m not saying smile to appease the jerks. I’m trying to find the reason why some women get harassed more than others.
Does that make more sense?
As far as comparing women to blacks, there are similarities and differences. Yes, in both cases people need to realize that certain behaviors are unacceptable. The difference is that race relations change over time, and eventually the us vs them dynamic has a good chance of going away. But male-female dynamics will always be with us. That’s never going to change. So in the long run, women will have a much harder time of it than blacks. That’s why I’m thinking that coping strategies have more value than education.
True. The fact that someone objects (the reaction) to being whistled at (the action) doesn’t mean the action is objectionable.
Whether or not you feel subjectively threatened or abused is not a referendum on whether the behavior itself is objectively offensive in a vacuum. Your intelligence is entirely irrelevant to the question.
My personal opinion is more power to you, in exactly the same way that my opinion is that a woman who feels abused has justification to feel that way, and in exactly the same way I would say more power to a woman who doesn’t even feel abused by, for instance, a slur, even though you and other women do. I don’t think you are required to feel the objectification to intellectually appreciate it.
I don’t get mad when people say racist shit to me, that doesn’t mean the person isn’t making racist statements. All it means is I don’t care. I see this as some women being bothered by a sexist behavior, and you not caring. Doesn’t make the behavior any less sexist. No?
So, because it’s harder, we should just learn how to cope rather than actively denouncing it?
and
Nicely encapsulated, and well said.
Sure they did. They made an empty, ridiculous, entirely unthreatening threat.
Which means that the ONLY power they have over you is the power to get your recreational outrage het up.
Hey, it’s your time, use it as you see fit.
But that’s not true in this case. Men harm women all the time. It was merely an example of how the reaction doesn’t necessarily invalidate the definition of the action. Besides, many women are irritated or frightened by this behavior (including me). If one black person says they aren’t bothered by racist slurs, does that mean the rest should just get over it?
Sorry, Diana, I didn’t mean to imply that one should or shouldn’t feel threatened by it. I am not proscribing how people should react to abusive behavior. But because you have developed good coping skills that keep you from being hurt by that kind of abuse doesn’t mean it should continue.
Agreed 100%. The way some women get treated is undoubtedly unfair and no one should ever have to put up with that shit. We’re all in agreement with that, right?
The thing is, in the real world, it’s still going to happen. We’re all in agreement with that too, right?
It seems to me that the conclusion that many are drawing is “Therefore, we shouldn’t make any effort to solve the problem.”
That’s my frustration with this discussion.
The effort shouldn’t be made by the women. That’s analogous to saying if people don’t want to be gay-bashed in public, they should stop looking so faggy. Yeah, no they shouldn’t.
Why can’t you do both?
Because appeasement reinforces the behavior in the harassers, so it’s counterproductive in the long term.
I also disagree with the assertion that it’s always going to happen, no matter what. Social behaviors change, but we have to make them change.