An ex co-worker who was working in some suburb of Los Angeles at an industrial boiler site claims he was harassed by catcalling Latina “girl gang” members, who scared the hell out of him by making such offers, in words to that effect, that they were going to pull his jeans down and if he couldn’t get it up “enough” to satisfy them, they’d cut off his male equipment. He alleges that knives were shown, but all they did was catcall, threaten, and laugh at him as he spun tires getting out of there.
I currently live in a country where the women are very assertive sexually, but the men constantly harass the women. In the part of Costa Rica where I live, the guys often make comments about looks and, in some parts of Nicaragua and Costa Rica I’ve visited, women are told not to go out alone after dark to avoid harassment by men. However, the women here are very, very assertive and constantly tell the guys to fuck off and will shout insults back. Based upon the fact that most of the males I’ve seen who catcall tend to be from jobs which are traditionally associated with high levels of masculinity, or from cultures where machismo is important, I agree with the posters who state that the attitude of women has very little to do with catcalling and that it is rather the result of men showing off to other men.
Interesting point. Question for the women that experience this a lot – Are the men that do these stupid things more likely to be found in groups or alone?
Both.
Men in groups or alone? I also say both. I definitely think some men do like showing off for their buddies. But others don’t want to get shot down in front of their friends, so they’d rather go it alone. I would also imagine some men like trying it both ways, in groups and also singly.
In the group of men there are often some guys hanging back who probably wouldn’t ever harass women. But they do like watching it and laughing with their buddies about it. There are always those who just like watching the show, enjoying the entertainment being provided by the others. For some reason I often tend to look at each guy in the group, figuring out who’s the biggest clown, the biggest show-off, the ones who prod and encourage the clowns, and the more timid ones who wouldn’t have the nerve to do what the ringleaders are doing. It’s interesting that whenever I look at these latter ones, they always avert there eyes. I look over the guys in groups because I try to determine whether they are really dangerous, or just really stupid.
But once time there were 4 guys in a car following me, calling me names and shouting in anger because I wouldn’t stop to talk to them. I didn’t hang around to study any of them. It was clear they wanted to hurt me bad.
Also, whether it’s a woman alone, or women in groups, either way, the men will harass. I been in groups of women being harassed, and I’ve also been harassed while I was alone. There have been times when the women were harassed as a whole group; other times one of us in the group was singled out for the harassment.
This whole thread also reminds me of another strange incident. I was once alone in an elevator with a guy. He never said a single word, not a sound of any kind. He also never touched me, didn’t grab his crouch, and didn’t lick his lips, nothing like that. But he leered, looking me up and down and up and down and up and down and up and down, all while smiling in a leering way. It was an old building, a slow elevator, and a long ride. He had already pushed for 15th floor, I had pushed 13th. Finally I realized that he read my ignoring him as me being intimidated by him. Ignoring him just made him bolder, and the leering got worse, and his smile got wider, because he thought I was afraid of him. I was annoyed, yes, but not afraid.
So I finally turned to him and said calmly, straightforwardly, and without drama, “what are you doing?” First he feigned innocence and ignorance, asked me what I meant. I didn’t answer his questions, and didn’t name the behavior, because I suspected that would just lead to his denial, and accusing me of imagining things. So I persisted with my own pretense of innocence and calm questions. “I really don’t know what to call it. What would you call it?” and then “Well, you were the one doing it; why are you asking me what you were doing? Don’t you even know what you were doing?” He still claimed innocence, so I gave up with the questions, just stared again at the floor numbers going by as if it was really no big deal. Total silence for a few more floors as he scratched his head and thought this over. Well, at least he wasn’t leering anymore.
Then he finally turned back to me and admitted aloud. “oh, you mean when I was acting lecherous, and leering at you?” I replied with yet more innocence and questions, “Oh, is that what that was? Leering, you say? Yeah, what was that about? What were you trying to accomplish with that?” He didn’t have any good answers, but started trying to tell me he meant no real harm. By the time I reached my floor he was genuinely apologizing, while I was lecturing him about harassing women who don’t want to be pestered like that. If I had been a different type of woman I would have been terribly traumatized by it while he had a good laugh at my expense. I’m also sure that leering/intimation routine had been his usual form of entertainment while riding the elevator with a lone woman. But I’m pretty sure he couldn’t do it again without also thinking of his encounter to me.
I mention all of this because the elevator incident is something I would put squarely in the category of catcalls. I was clearly sexually harassed, mistreated, and bullied, just for being a woman, even though not a single word had been spoken by the guy, no whistles, and no overt obscene gestures either.
Very nice; however, I hope you realize that social aggression and dominance pays off whether you’re right or wrong.
The hard facts are these;
Men can intimidate women, physically. This fact is pounded into women from the time they are young and with good reason, it’s true. They are more vulnerable to being physically overpowered.
Men, in a group, being overtly sexual borders on mob mentality. The objects of their jeering may feel little to nothing, others may feel overtly threatened by such behaviour. Not because, in and of itself, it is damaging, but because it’s like watching a dog bare it’s teeth. A signal is being sent. A signal that tweaks a woman’s spidey sense.
I don’t believe anyone really believes it’s okay to just assault someone. But let’s keep in mind that millions of women have been the object of various levels of such harassment for like how many years? So one man finally gets the tables turned on him and takes a beating for the team. It’s not right. But you’ll have to forgive us if we’re not terribly sympathetic.
All women were once young girls. Who’s evident development made them the object of unwanted and often inappropriate attention, not uncommonly when they are still quite young. It makes them feel vulnerable and at risk, suddenly all the warnings come back and they see how it is. They are always at risk, they do have to always be aware. This is when they learn the spidey sense.
That’s kind of the signal that catcalling sends, in my opinion.
Want women to be less sensitive to such things? Try being a little more sensitive yourselves, stop behaving like apes - you’re not in the jungle anymore.
I always think to myself, “What? You don’t have mothers, sisters, girlfriends?”
Christ, this. Thank you, elbows, for speaking my mind.
(Note: bolding in quote is mine, used to highlight previously italicized words.)
This is a really intriguing point, actually. I have to wonder how the catcallers (or people who, whether sincerely or facetiously, are defending it) would react to someone putting the moves on their own sister or girlfriend in public.
“Hey buddy, keep your comments to yourself!” “She’s not yours for the taking!”
Which, while honorable from a familial standpoint, only serves to highlight the attitude underlying both these problems: women are property. If they belong to you or share your genes, they’re valuable and off-limits without proper homage. If they don’t, they’re unclaimed territory and should feel flattered to have the attention of property-holders.
I realize this is an extreme conflict-theory view and I’m putting words on some guys’ mouths. But hey, their mouths probably need some stiff attention filling them - maybe they’ll learn not to open them so much.
I just realized - that’s what will solve the problem! All women should be supplied with menacing dildos to brandish at guys who make unwanted advances on the street. If sharing that sexual energy is a good thing, why not make it both ways? With some of the suggestions ordinary women get just having the gall to own a vagina, there should hardly be any limit to what could be suggested for a deep connection between the next loud asshole and a nice 10" double-header. 
Now to plan the dildo industry bailout…
Ooo honey, you’re just too big to fail.
I’m going to get burned, but it seems that every woman I’ve encountered ever has made it a point to complain about how oh so hard life is for women in general.
Snooze.
And yet you appear to have learned nothing from it, hmmmm.
True that, since all complaining is justified and wise.
Palacheck:
I would say, as a woman, that a “woman’s life” isn’t “Oh so hard”. It’s just full of DIFFERENT challenges than a man’s life. I have never to my knowledge been a man, so I don’t know how hard or not hard life is for a man. I will state that I think women have been marginalized, and I’ve heard stuff like your “oh so hard” line, in real life. I don’t think a man has to deal with many of the things a woman has to deal with. They have other things to deal with that are different. I think you’d be justifiably upset if some woman looked at a man’s life and belittled his feelings and beliefs about his life like that, especially if she belittled ALL men’s feelings and beliefs like that. And you’d be right to be upset. For the same reason, I think your comment was horribly judgmental, annoying, belittling, and despite being off topic, an example of EXACTLY what we’re talking about here.
Everyone else:
The objectification and marginalization of women has just been demonstrated, ladies and gentlemen, right here in post #630. I hope that some woman never complained about sexual harassment, assault, rape, cat-calling, diminished pay, marginalization, or glass ceilings to Palacheck, because I have the impression that Palacheck would have either patted her on the head and told her not to worry her little head about it, because Palacheck would take care of it, or Palacheck would have assumed she was exaggerating and not taken her seriously. Because she’s just griping about how women have it so tough and life’s “oh so hard”, of course. Because she couldn’t be telling the truth or anything (from her perspective at least), right? She’s just complaining for no reason.
Check out this thread for a bunch of men complaining about how it’s oh so hard to be a man in general these days. They are the REAL VICTIMS, I tell ya.
Snooze.
I don’t know. I guess I get equally tired when I hear both women and men bitching about how life sucks for each gender. I think life can suck but not just because of your gender or whatever. And some people are definitely born victims.
Eloquently and succinctly stated, Freudian Slit.
Your posts in that thread seem about as sympathetic as my post in this thread.
There have been a handful of threads that have men complaining about how hard it is being a man. There are roughly a million threads about how difficult it is for women. Not a day goes by that I don’t see posts by Rubystreak, Cat Fight, and any of a hundred other female posters whining or complaining about misogyny or SOMETHING having to do with gender issues. Maybe that confirms that women do have it worse, but it also confirms that you lot never shut up about it.
ANY men’s issue brought up by a male poster is downplayed by a female poster, or gently guided into a discussion about misogyny or women’s rights.
Some of the most blatantly sexist things I’ve ever read have come from some of the women on this board, and NO ONE ever gets called on that shit.
You don’t read too good then, do you?
Confirmation bias. Also, making shit up.
Oh, poor you! You’re such a victim. More complaining. Snooze.
Have you tried getting out more?
I’ll just go ahead and say it again. I’m thinking of creating a macro for it.
It’s fucking retarded to generalize about 50% of the population, regardless of which 50% it is.
Perhaps you could make up a list of topics now verboten and pass it along to the mods. Or maybe there could be some sort of rule, like ‘For every thread about getting harassed at work, there’s got to be one about what you like in bed. For every comment about a rape case making headlines, you have to link to some pics of Jessica Alba so all the hetero male Dopers can explain what they’d like to do to her.’
If your reaction to this many posts (and a whole other thread) isn’t ‘Wow, this seems to be quite a problem for some Doper women, and a hot button topic for some others’ but ‘Wow, women sure do like to complain a lot,’ I’m not sure what I can say. Maybe you should be in GD telling people to stop debating over health care and religion.