Just for the record, I would love to beat Jessica Alba at Scrabble.
Dream big, RNATB.
It’s true. Jessica Alba knows two letter words you’ve never even heard of. She will parallel play the shit out of you.
My experience: Guys who shout from cars are almost always with buddies. Guys on the street can be either way. The ones who follow you on the street tend to be alone.
People in a thread about women’s reaction to men’s harassment of women talk about men’s harassment of women? Really? Shocking!
Have you ever, like, thought about it? Serious question.
May I add this corollary?
Life could also be wonderful for each person if they focus on why it’s so great being a <insert gender here>, especially when you don’t get sucked in to the victim role.
Heh. Jessica Alba.
Saw the movie “Awake” on Saturday night. That bitch!
Saw the movie “Good Luck Chuck” on Sunday night. That angel!
Or was it the other way around?
That’s a nice little generic nugget of wisdom, but it’s a useless thing to say. Unless, that is, no one is allowed to complain about anything ever. I could gripe about Shoe Store X running out of the pair I wanted in my size, then someone else could chime in about how wonderful life would be if I’d focus on how great my present shoe collection is. Yes, yes, it’s fine, and I hardly spend most of my time lamenting failed purchases at DSW, but it’s still hard to find shoes in my size.
But why do I even bother? Half the men in this thread have the notion that all women who are harassed are “victims” who could end all harassment on earth by men if they were to only modify their behavior and perk up a little.
Yeticus Rex, I want to take great pains to disclaim up front any intimation of prejudice or ill will on your part, but I also really don’t think the one size fits all bromides are quite on point here. It walks a very fine line, in a discussion about a pattern of mistreatment, to suggest that something other than the mistreatment is deserving of primary attention; so much so that in my opinion, it is harmful to the end goal of eliminating the mistreatment to entertain the notion that “Life could also be wonderful for each person if they focus on why it’s so great being a <insert gender here>”.
Maybe the statement is true, from a particularly sanguine universal outlook, but when inserted into a discussion about a specific and endemic human institution, it achieves roughly the same goal as patronization would. It doesn’t give the problem the attention it deserves. Life is not wonderful for each person all the time, and often it is necessary that we examine why this is happening.
Again, I don’t think you or Freudian Slit are saying these things because you hate women (obviously) or don’t respect the opinions of the other participants in the thread, but I do think that, by saying more or less that we’re all in this together, you’re drawing attention away from a real and significant phenomenon in which we all are markedly not in this together. For a woman at a train station in the wrong part of the wrong town, life can most certainly suck, and it can most certainly be because of her gender. It’s a fallacy – introduced, in fact, by those who are arguing that the problem doesn’t even exist – to argue that because gender is not the sole determinant of everything that happens in a person’s life, nothing that ever happens to any person is determined by that person’s gender.
edit: MeanOldLady said it quicker and she wasn’t as ponderous about it.
Sure, but I do think it can go too far. I mean, you read all kinds of ridiculous claims to victimhood on the Internet. Like when guys complain about how they’re such victims because of how women can use rape or domestic abuse claims to make men’s life miserable and men can’t do anything. Or the time I read about a woman who went to a guy’s house before a date and he started kissing her and her interpretation was this was a huge violation and an example of “not rape.” I think both men and women can have legitimate gripes about things based on their gender, but at the same time, both of them can play the victim, too.
My impression of these boards is exactly the opposite.
No, I do get IT.
Maybe my corollary was a little to over the top and directed towards the wrong group; instead of “wonderful”, I should have said “better”. Also, I was referring to how some folks here seem to get sucked into a pissing match over who has it worse, men or women. COUNTERPRODUCTIVE. Freudian Slit and I are addressing those who seem to feel that victimhood is the only viable option to increase awareness. I realize every situation is unique, but the general application will overall do more good than harm.
My wife and I work together as employers in the social services field, mainly working with adults with developmental disabilities. We serve both genders and assist them in learning daily living skills and job opportunities that everyone else takes for granted. My staff is about 90% women and 10% men. Of the women, about half of them are single moms, eeking out a living, and some putting up with crap from deadbeat dads, “boyfriends” who treat them like shit, and even some of the others have abusive husbands who are glad to be out of the house for a few hours out of the day. Over the years, I’ve personally helped relocate some of the mothers and abused wives to a safe place to live or grant them extra time off to arrange legal matters. I’ve even had to confront angry husbands/boyfriends who try to harass their wife/girlfriend at work and also had to involve law enforcement. I get it…sometimes it does suck to be a women. We even have staff meetings regarding harassment and abuse, both regarding our clients and our staff. Even had psych counselors give presentations and vital contacts to keep our staff safer and smarter on how to deal with questionable people in public as well as those abusers they share a roof with.
Other times, my employees just want an ear to listen. Sometimes, they do want advice. What I do (IF they ask for it) advise them on is to focus or redirect on WHAT POSITIVE THINGS THEY DO HAVE, rather than submerging themselves in the role of Victim, and they tend to personally get better, sooner. I do not want a pat on the back for what I have done in the past here, that is not why I am posting this. I would hopefully receive the same treatment from if the roles were reversed. Why I am posting this is that I do acknowledge that life can suck for anyone, both men and women, but what I will not acknowledge is that a victim must remain a victim because of one’s gender. The things we have done in the past has helped them avoid putting themselves in danger in the present and future.
And although some of you hate to hear this, it does involve change on the victim’s part:
Changing in how one feels that they must endure abuse to one where self-preservation is a better choice.
Changing in how one perceives their own self-worth from low to high by finding examples of their work that warrants it.
Changing one’s image from weak to strong without losing the other characteristics that make their identity unique.
Going from passive to assertive, OR aggressive to assertive in order to be heard and respected at the same time.
It doesn’t involve useless shoe analogies. If you want to be better, it starts with you wanting to be better (re: change), and finding the help to get better. Complaining about not feeling good because someone else made you sick is not helping you get better, it just makes you a complainer.
Sure, I realize the real problem is the attitudes of the catcallers, but again, you cannot change what you can’t control. You will be pounding sand until your fists bleed. You can only control yourself, and you can only change yourself. The closest thing I can relate to is that I realized (when as a 10th grader) when a kid that bullied me for 8 years wasn’t gonna change (stop bullying) for me unless I created change in myself…I stood up to him instead of walking away. Then HE changed…he stopped bullying me. A more detailed story here. I don’t advocate this in this day and age, but I do advocate change in one’s self.
Yeticus Rex, I didn’t get the impression that anyone in this thread is advocating that women who are cat-called (or men who are cat-called, for that matter) just whine about it. What I say is that changing one’s behavior only goes so far. Cultivated that slight smile so strangers would stop telling you to smile? It’s not big enough, or it’s not real, or it’s an invitation to flirt because “you wouldn’t smile at me unless you wanted me”. Did you start walking assertively? Now you’re a man-hating bitch, and “I’m gonna teach you how a real woman should be”. If you are in an abusive situation, then changing your attitude to one that includes the possibility that you didn’t “earn” the abuse and can do something about it is laudworthy. Telling a normally assertive woman that she has to CHANGE MORE so that she isn’t victimized is what it SEEMS like you are doing on occasion in this thread.
I don’t think this is what you’re trying to do, honestly. I think that we can all agree that there are women (and men since domestic abuse of men is either on the rise or being reported more) who need to realize that they are in a bad situation, and that it’s NOT THEIR FAULT, but they need to change themselves to convince themselves that they are worth more than that. They can do better, be better, deserve better. However, applying these principles whole hog to the entirety of the female population tells those that have already done this work that they’re not doing enough. They haven’t changed ENOUGH, and since they are still being cat-called or harassed, it’s obviously because they have more work to do on themselves. In other words, it’s gone (or at least feels like it has) from “you are worth more, and need to change yourself to realize it and do better for yourself” to “obviously you’re not trying hard enough”, which I think we can both agree is counter-productive.
So the closest analogy you can come up with is that you did what the women in the OP’s story did? You’re not giving an example of being assertive–you’re giving an example of being aggressive.
I think the point is that he did something rather that accept his fate.
How is standing up to someone being aggressive, instead of assertive?
Uh, no. He countered with two warnings followed with a physical threat. The bitches in the OP responded with over-the-top physical brutality to a FREAKIN’ WHISTLE!
Huh? He said he “stood up to him”, not he “punched him in the face”. Is not allowing people to shit all over you aggressive, now?
ETA I read the linked post after posting this, but frankly I’m still with Yeticus here. It’s certainly not exactly analagous, but I’m a huge fan of not taking any shit.
Yeticus, I was going to ignore what you wrote since you don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about, but I couldn’t resist.
Whose self-worth is altered by catcallers? I don’t think any woman here is suggesting her perception of herself has changed; it’s the perception of *them *that is negative.
Right, this shit again. Women who get catcalled are projecting weakness in your assbackwards mind, and would never be bothered again if they only corrected their posture, or some such bullshit.
When I’m walking down the street to get lunch, I’m walking down the street to get lunch. I really wish you would stop with this notion that women who are bothered are somehow exhibiting “passive” behavior that allows for harassment. But yes, a woman can say or do something to make it clear to the man bothering her that he needs to stop. And if she tells some bugger who is bothering her to go away and he does, then good. Problem solved? No.
Look, you’re making with stories about how you made some eighth grade bully stop bullying you, which fantastic, but is completely useless. Great. So you made the person who was bothering you go away. I suppose this changes similar behavior of other people? Regarding catcalling and general street harassment of women, we’re **not **talking about one guy who persists in bothering one woman consistently. That woman can either take action to make the man go away, or she can silently wish it away and see what happens. We’re talking about the regular occurrence of men harassing women, without provocation, in public. If Woman A says or does something to make Man B stop bothering her, that does not change the phenomenon of general street harassment.
We’re all happy that the guy went away, but what a lot of women in this thread are talking about is the *persistent *occurrence of not being to get a fucking loaf of bread without having to deal with this kind of bullshit. Men would not do it to other men, and wouldn’t even do it to a woman if she were accompanied by a man. It’s complete bull and a lot of us are tired of it. Oh, but I guess that means the women are behaving as “victims” if they don’t like harassing behavior.
And here’s another thing. Even when the women get “assertive,” this doesn’t even always make the men go away. But that’s a different story entirely.
But no no no, you’re right. Women who are vocal about not liking this are perpetual victims, and they’ll never be bothered again once they assume more commanding body language. Never mind the women who claim their body language is confident and assertive, but still get harassed. They’re probably doing it wrong.
Exactly. I’m just fucking fed up that treating me like a piece of meat is an acceptable attitude for these guys (and everybody else who doesn’t do it but also doesn’t see what the big deal is).
I’m going to extend a standing offer to any of you assholes who think I get harassed 'cause I’m some meek little slip of a girl to come meet me. I guarantee you won’t be able to sustain that mistaken impression for more than five seconds.
Not to mention, as I observed, the way he got the bully to **stop **bullying him was to pick the kid up and drag him out of the classroom, ostensibly to beat the shit out of him outside. He responded to a pattern of abuse with a threat of violence of his own, and **that **stopped it. But apparently all we need to do is be assertive! Even if we say that’s what we do already, and even if his own example was of a completely different tactic!
Maybe he could come teach us, 'cause he totally knows better. Maybe he could pat us on the head if we get it right. Maybe we could get a treat! Oh boy oh boy, I love treats! Pant pant pant, wag tail wag tail.