Well said, Amarinth.
It’s a continuum. No, we’re not wholly random strangers here. We’re not much more than that, but we at least know something of each other beyond physical superficialities, unlike people you encounter on the street.
Uh…no? Let’s look at it again.
This is the refutation. The presence or absence of the insult changes it not one bit. Were it a true ad hom, the refutation would rely wholly on the personal attack. In fact, the insult is completely gratuitous. At best, it might be called a conclusion, but it’s certainly not a refutation.
Yes, I realize it’s a total hijack, but when you start going, “No, this is an ad hominem!” you’re kind of opening yourself up to correction.
And your point is…?
OK, technically it’s not an ad hominem, it’s just another gratuitous personal attack because I disagreed with her. It’s totally in line with her style of refutation when challenged. I sure hope you plan to correct her misuse of the term as well.
Only that I believe, and I think SFG believes but won’t speak for her, that disliking someone for who they are as an individual is more acceptable than disliking them for being a certain gender. That is, while the only reason a guy might shout “Whore!” at a woman he sees on the street is because she’s a woman, and is thus sexist, her use of whore regarding curlcoat is not hypocritical because she’s saying curlcoat sold herself for money. Different aspects of the word.
(And my god has this conversation gone surreal. :smack:)
Well, here’s the part you’ll get mad about. You did actually commit ad hom:
Whether or not SFG is a hypocrite has no bearing on her argument that catcalling is sexist. If someone publishes a paper of hard facts and evidence that smoking is bad for you, that doesn’t go away simply because you find out the author has a three pack a day habit. I’m not necessarily saying SFG’s argument thus far is entirely hard facts and evidence, but hypocrisy does not detract from the argument unless the argument is “I’m not hypocritical.”
And like I said, if she used the word once, in the context of making a real point about curlcoat’s argument, I wouldn’t have commented on it. The fact that she used the word repeatedly, every time curlcoat said anything, and then admitted that she was only saying it because she enjoyed being cruel to curlcoat, sort of invalidates the position that she was using the word “whore” to make a valid rhetoric point. It’s not about “disliking someone because they are a certain gender v. disliking them for who they are.” She doesn’t know who curlcoat is. She doesn’t like what curlcoat said in a thread and decided to beat up on her using sexist language. It’s a gender based attack that goes beyond the scope of rhetoric or argument and into the realm of gratuitous personal attack for the sole purpose of silencing the opponent. She has admitted this, so it’s not even really up for debate.
I’m not saying her sexist behavior has bearing on her argument that catcalling is sexist. At no point did I object to that argument, you’ll notice, or attempt to debunk it. What I object to is the way she presents herself as someone who has the right to berate men for their sexist behavior, and other women for not taking action or issue with the sexism, when her own behavior is sexist when it suits her. Thus, it’s not her argument per se that I take issue with, it’s her positioning of herself as a crusader against sexism, when she’s not. Or she is, but only when the sexism is directed at her, not when she’s directing it at other women. And she HAS made the argument that she’s not hypocritical, multiple times. So no, this time I’m not going to concede your point.
Fair enough. Like I said, I’m not going to argue for her. I just wanted to clarify a couple of things.
Heh. You’re looking for “actual debate and discussion”, unless people disagree with you, or point out your bad behavior, at which point you dismiss them as “stupid”. I’m interested to see exactly what you might concede as a “valid point”, since as far as I can tell, no one in this thread has had one in your opinion, unless they agree with you.
If I were a sexist, I might say you’ve got way more balls than brains. :rolleyes:
Actually, if you were sexist, you’d tell her to get over here and suck you dick. Not that I’d know.
NICE TITS !!
In my backyard. Right now. Titmice. Three of them. At my feeder. They’re nice.
Hi, all.
Just a tiptoe into this subject. I’m telling the truth here, not being sarcastic. I’m a woman who is, ahem, ugly. I guess I could try to pretty it up but I won’t. My daughter, on the other hand, is beautiful and always has been. When she was little I realized I didn’t know anything about what life was like for a beautiful woman. That’s in terms of unwanted attention from strangers.
To help me, I read a book called “Combat in the Erogenous Zone” by Ingrid Bengis. People always seem to think I’m kidding when I say the title, but that’s really it.
As for me, I never even turn around when I hear what we used to call a “wolf whistle”. Even if there’s no one else around, I know it’s not meant for me. That makes it easy.
Are you saying that attractive little kids get attention from guys? I dunno, I remember another poster posting about how protective he would get when guys would stare at his eight year old daughter because she was so hot…and it just came off as a little weird that he would see her that way even though she was a little kid.
PS.
I’m sorry I didn’t check all the pages and pages of insults going back and forth before I posted just now. Jeez! Maybe I’ll stay out of the Pit.
Yes. Ingrid Bengis in her book describes being groped on the subway when she was 12. I don’t know how old my daughter was the first time she was sexually harassed. While I wouldn’t personally use the word “hot” to describe my child, or any child, there are people of both sexes who are beautiful no matter what age they are. Those of us who aren’t beautiful can be clueless, and I never wanted to be clueless about any part of being a parent.
I did more than read a book, too. I made sure that my daughter knew at a very early age to say “No!” when she didn’t like something. So many times, girls are taught to please others. I tried to make sure my daughter knew that her own safety was much more important than being “nice”.
But I thought that in general, and what people have been saying in here, is that that kind of sexual attention isn’t really about attraction but about…well, I don’t know, something else. I do think that sometimes sex violence can specifically be about sex, but I’ve just always thought that “Being sexy can result in rape” was just a huge blown out of proportion myth. Though this is kind of a sore subject with me, I’ll admit–I’ve been sexually assaulted/groped and been told by someone that it was probably about something I personally did, so I apologize if I’m coming to this with any kind of blinkers or biases.
I started getting catcalled and leered at when I was in the fifth grade, so I was 11 or 12 when it started. Granted, I didn’t LOOK like a fifth grader in the body, but my face was still the face of a tweener, I still looked under 13. My own daughter was catcalled at least once when she was that age. Bodoni girls are early bloomers. I know she was catcalled, because I was with her, and the guys made comments about her jeans, and I wasn’t wearing pants, so I know they were harassing her. She didn’t appreciate the attention.
So yeah, it does start that early. It’s not really about attraction, it’s mostly about intimidating and harassing a female. So if there’s a little kid who is obviously female, she’s an easy target.
giggle
Now seriously, folks, it started for me at around age 13. I certainly hope it was not about physical attractiveness, because I was at the height of my awkwardness then, and was very clearly a junior high school student. I did not look older for my age, and I was not an early bloomer. It was the same group of guys everyday, and I remember thinking, “Why are these idiots bothering me?” which later progressed into, “Man, those guys are assholes.” I started altering my route home, which kept me away from those particular guys and kept me happy enough… but then it all went downhill, and the harassment simply became part of life.
I was a C cup by 13. It started for me about 13, as well, but that’s when I returned to the U.S. (Dad was in the military and stationed overseas.) I never experienced anything like it while I still lived on the military bases, it was only after living stateside. Tells me the training the military receives on sexual harassment has an effect, it does.
About the attractive thing, to an extent, it’s there. An unattractive female is more likely to get barking noises or derogatory comments than “hey baby can I suck your titties”, but she’s still likely to get catcalled. Even the poster who claims she is ugly said that she’d hear things and assume they were talking about someone else. (I’m not disputing her “ugly” claim. I’m merely completely unaware of what the poster looks like, so taking her at her claim, not expressing fact.) It’s not catcalling BECAUSE someone is attractive, it’s just that an attractive female is more likely to attract attention. Everyone either ignores or makes fun of ugly and large women. Several women in this thread have blessed the fact that once they got older and fatter, they’ve received less commentary.
This was quite a thread to plow through. I made it! Couple of thoughts:
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I don’t care what who said about whom in another thread. Go play in another sandbox already-this thread has enough drama just by itself.
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The women who beat up the guy in the OP were wrong to do so. Of course they were. But their being wrong does not minimize or dismiss the sexual harassment that goes on daily in women’s lives.
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I have to agree with MOL and** SFG** et al–it doesn’t matter what you wear, what you look like (although as a pretty girl, a pretty blonde girl, I think I got more shit than my brunette sister or friends, but I could be wrong), what you wear, or the expression on your face. What does matter is if you are alone and where you are alone.
IME, morons that do this sort of thing are usually in a group of guys–these are the catcallers and wolf whistlers. These can go either way with the verbal abuse. Some take the Finger or the “Fuck Off!” in good heart and laugh with their pals; others feel one upped and get hostile. Impossible to predict which way the jerk will go.
Dicks who think they’re god’s gift are the ones who whisper shit about your body to you as they pass by; these are also the lowlifes who will grope, brush, graze your body. What sad little losers they are, too.
Psychos are unpredictable and will follow you or loudly berate you. All bets are off with them because now they are effing following you and you had better have paid attention in self defense class or at mama’s knee and know your escape route, just in case.
IME, the worst harassment I got was from ages about 15-25. While I wouldn’t say my experiences were weekly or daily, they did occur at least monthly in those 10 years. That’s a LOT of times.
VERY scary as a teen to be on the receiving end of this, especially from those older men who like to paw young ladies–and god, I had my fill of them. These are usually men in the outer circles of your parent’s/grandparent’s acquaintance or similar whom you get introduced to while out to dinner or at some formal function etc and who seem to feel the need to touch you repeatedly, but “innocently”. Believe me, this was MUCH more prevalent in the 1970s when I was growing up than it is now. Think “Uncle Geoffrey” in Bridget Jones’ Diary. He may be (ultimately) “harmless”, but really, WHY should anyone have to put up with that shit? Because it’s rude to cause a “scene”? Who is in the wrong here–not the young girl, that’s for sure. It’s the less-than-a-man, using his position, his age and his power to intimidate someone vulnerable. Assholes.
I (for some reason known only to god) seem to have attracted old, black men, usually with gold teeth or missing teeth. I got a lot of “Mmm. Mmm. Mmm. Good!” while being looked up and down or “oh, yeah!”–and this from family members coming to visit their loved ones in ICU when I was a new nurse (in scrubs and the fact that I feel the need to relay that fact is telling in and of itself).
I also got a bit of men making smooching noises in the air, grabbing their crotches at me, and the nasty comments when I 1. ignored them; 2. confronted them or 3. flipped them off.
I used to lay out in my own backyard as a teen, trying to tan UNTIL I noticed the Mexican landscaping crew looking over the yew hedge at me and making comments in Spanish. Rather than consider this an opportunity for cultural exchange and goodwill, I took it as the assholery that it was. But I was 17 and had no clue (and would have rather died) than tell their boss or my neighbor about it. I merely stopped laying out (and saved my skin–see? Changing your way of life to accommodate the male sex drive can be good for you!)
I have been told repeatedly throughout my life that I need to smile more and look pleasant. NOT by my mother, but by strange men on the street. I am not an extra in the street theater of your life–and you are not the director in mine. Fuck off.
I am so glad (in some ways) that I am now 47 and completely invisible to most men on the street.
ETA: just remembered when 5 guys rolled up on Harley’s to a gas station where I was in the car (and my husband was in paying); they heckled me. And then there was the time a young punk approached me as I got in to my car, licking his lips and unzipping his fly…
That’s an excellent line. I may have to borrow it some time.
A reasonable person would have done it (a) in that thread, (b) in a private message, or (c) in a new thread. The fact that you did it here proves that you don’t really care about anything but publicly shaming me.
A woman who is catcalled in public can’t (or shouldn’t) escape going out in public. A person who is harassed in a section of a private website designed for harassment is free to leave that portion of the site at any time.
Can we please all pause to lawl? That word you keep using… I do not think it means what you think it means. You are attacking the validity of my stance in this thread by an attack on my person. That **is **an ad hominem attack.
Sure, so go ahead and demonstrate what I’ve said here that is no longer credible because of what I said in another thread.
No, it’s my goal to be vicious and nasty to people who I find disgusting on a deep and personal level, in a venue that is specifically designed to allow to be vicious and nasty to each other.
When have I ever claimed for myself what you claim for me? I guess we can add strawman to the pile on top of your ad homimen.
No, that was me calling you a fucking moron. I didn’t say your arguments were invalid because you were a fucking moron, I said that you were a fucking moron because you made an accusation that was directly contradicted by my actions. The difference is subtle, yet key.
What if the party had a guest bedroom specifically set aside for insulting other partygoers? Again, you seem to have two separate problems here: one that I insulted curlcoat at all, and the other, the words I chose to do it with. I’ve conceded that you have a point with the latter, but you’re dead wrong on the former.
1.) I never “admitted” anything resembling your pet theory. I agreed that taking advantage of cultural bias to make insults can reinforce that same cultural bias–that resembles nothing like what seems to be your “SFG is a closet misogynist” accusation.
2.) I used some other words repeatedly, too. I called her a retard a lot. Shouldn’t you be getting all up in arms over that, too? After all, it’s insulting to the developmentally disabled.
See, Bosstone got it. Although I have been convinced that I should be more careful with my choice of words, so as not to reinforce sexism inadvertantly by making use of its tropes.
No shit.
Really? So I can call a woman a whore once, and that’s fine, but it’s only when I do it repeatedly that it’s a problem? Who’s the hypocrite now, hypocrite?
Some of us can do two things at one time, like chewing gum and walking, or making valid rhetorical points and insulting people.
I know that she’s someone who expresses revolting opinions on message boards and rejects any and all evidence that her worldview is based entirely on her own prejudices and opinions without any grounding in the real world. That’s all I need to know.
Uh huh. So, where exactly did I make any of these claims for myself? And how does my using sexist language in another thread, which was not intended to be sexist, in any way negate the points I made here?
IIRC, the only time I called anyone stupid in this particular thread of discussion was when Ruby accused me of not actually wanting to discuss this. I’ve admitted several valid points of people I initially disagreed with. And all of that happened before you made this snide little post. So, what part of the thread did you read, exactly? If you gave my last post a TL;DR, you probably want to go back and actually read it this time.
Unfortunately, attempting to compare my brains to my balls results in a divide by zero error. I must therefore conclude that my brains are infinite. So, thank you for the compliment.
This was actually a pretty civil thread for the Pit, until **Rubystreak **decided to turn it into her Personal Off-Topic Crusade Against SFG.
Similar here–probably about 12, in sixth or seventh grade.