I agree. Just plain ordinary good manners (let alone stuff beyond the pale like crotch-grabbing) have gone by the wayside. Civility and respectful behavior lubricate the wheels and gears of society.
I’ve attended a local community college for the last 16 years taking various courses, and just over that short period of time I’ve seen the deterioration of mutually respectful behavior between and among students.
[quote=“Shodan, post:220, topic:768105”]
Yes, most of them are. But I think [ol][li]there has been a breakdown in the consensus of what constitutes proper etiquette in public in the US. Much of the old code was racist and sexist and repressive, but much of it wasn’t. We’ve gained from the receding of the old, iron-clad rules of etiquette, but we have also lost. [/ol][/li][/QUOTE]
I like this point. But to resurrect the “good parts” of traditional etiquette, there needs to be an argument that leaves out any mention of the good ol’ days, or tradition, or the like, since all those things were tied to the very negative aspects you mention. I don’t know how “tradition” can be an argument in favor of something when so many traditions are terrible.
How could a “new etiquette” be introduced? I’d offer that it would need to be entirely functional – for example, mandatory hats aren’t necessary, since they don’t serve the kind of purpose that respectful treatment of women (and everyone else) does, so that would be left out.
But this might be beyond the scope of this thread, so if you want to continue, perhaps we should start a different one.
How do the police or the public react to this kind of thing in Japan? Suppose, IOW, that I was accompanying my wife/daughter/friend on the subway in Japan, someone groped her, and I ended up taking him down and holding him in place with an armlock while she called the police. Would they take it seriously? Or if I simply did some impromptu tooth extractions?
You say they have “women-only” cars. Do they do anything else?
I’ve always heard that Japan has lower rates of sexual assault, even with all the violent manga. Do the police just not want to hear about it?
Regards,
Shodan
Agreed. I’ll start one, based on this post.
Give me a few, and join in if you like.
Regards,
Shodan
Should be the other way round, normally: never asking a question without providing the answer from your own side. It’s one of the things that drive me nuts with some people, when they start asking personal questions without telling me anything. What, you’re a cop and this is the third degree? Where’s my lawyer? Wanna lawyer!
I have lived in places where, as Grim Render put it, smiling at strangers would be seen as a sign of insanity, and in others where it’s perfectly normal to strike up a conversation with a stranger. Also, apparently I happen to look like I’m a dear relative or friend of maybe 1/4 of the planet, based on how many people tell me their lifes in the most unexpected places (I should’a been a spy). My default mode on eye contact, until I’ve found out what the local custom is like, is to nod - no smile. There have been a few times I’ve gotten funny looks and then I realized I was smiling (hey, I was happy!).
New thread here, should anyone care to join.
Regards,
Shodan
Late to this thread but to throw in 2p on:
2 doesn’t apply, I’d never have any doubt they don’t like it, but the rest does. Shocked and appalled, and felt awful reading through just the first few. I’m shocked that so many guys think it’s fine or “just a bit cheeky and naughty, tee hee” to invade someone’s body without consent.
Yet… in a sense it does get talked about under the name of “rape culture”. But it just doesn’t really hammer the message home of how prevalent it is, how ‘far’ people go with the touching or really make you think about how the victims felt quite as much as this thread does.
I think the problem when it’s just bandied about as a buzzword is a significant number of anti-feminist types chime in and claim it’s a myth and things like that and just don’t really understand / get the message. So I wonder if it can be combated to some degree by having more of these real and frank stories in the public eye. Tell them in schools, too, so at least future generations have a better chance of moving past this.
Edit to add: Sorry if it’s kind of redundant this late. Felt compelled to respond.
Not at all, quite the opposite: a bit of a relief to hear that we’re not typing this stuff out for nothing. Thanks 
I think the last sentence is probably the most important. I suspect the mindset of casual ass-grabbers first forms during (or even before) puberty, and it’s a mindset that goes hand-in-hand with that of nonsexual bullying, i.e. a sense of feeling entitled to violate someone else’s body/dignity for one’s own entertainment. Upthread there was mention of teaching good kids to speak up when they see bad kids doing this kind of thing. There ought to be more discussion in schools - not just the standard all-school assembly where the principal stands at the lectern and says “ass-grabbing is bad, mmm-kay?”, but a more (sorry for using this word) intimate setting, i.e. classroom by classroom, where there can maybe be discussion and sharing of personal incidents (by willing parties) so that everyone can get a more direct sense of the damage it does and perhaps be more motivated to take a stand against it.
It’s hard to get jerk adults to stop doing this stuff if they’ve already been doing it for years before they became adults; it’d be much easier to nip it in the bud.
Our responsibility to people in public is to not make things needlessly harder; accept people as you find them unless there’s genuine intervention called for (they’re sobbing, having a medical emergency, that sort of thing). Their expression isn’t your business and no one’s entitled to control that but them. That is courtesy at its most basic and it’s confusing to me how anyone could think the expression on another person’s face somehow costs them something.
How would the frown of another person possibly be a detriment?
Yep, agree with all this really. (I wouldn’t say “good” or “bad” that early, but get your meaning)
With the classroom I think you’d have to bring in victims who are willing to talk about it, and certainly more than one as they need to understand how common it is. (I’m assuming you’re not talking about sharing stories between themselves as obviously that’s kind of awkward, and as evidenced by the thread, people don’t necessarily understand how they feel about being abused when they’re young, it hits them like a train when they grow up and reflect on it)
I’m reaching the limits of my understanding of the details of our Prevention Ed program for domestic violence and sexual assault, but the gist is they have two tailored curriculums for girls and boys of each age group. I’m more familiar with what they do with the boys. The boys are separated because, according to our facilitators (both of whom are male) they will bring up and discuss things, attitudes they have, etc. that they would never in a million years admit in front of the girls. The facilitator’s job isn’t to say ‘‘Oh my god you’re a horrible person for thinking that!’’ But rather to get them to start thinking critically about where those attitudes came from and how they affect victims. Once they reach that place of honesty without fear of judgment, they start to talk about real life things they have seen and witnessed. Then they get into the skills part of the training – what could we have done in those situations to intervene? What can we do in the future? What can we do right now to start shaping the culture we are living in?
Best as I understand, the research indicates that this is a really effective method of reducing sexual violence in schools.
Ditto. Welcome aboard, TwiSpark.
Some differences are just generational or cultural. I’m usually wearing a serious expression, so men have been telling me to smile forever. I’ve encountered women who think nothing of handling your infant and asking jaw-dropping personal questions if you’re out shopping with said infant. While intrusive, it’s not predatory and no harm is intended. I believe it’s from when going out in public was to fully interact with the public and try to meet all of its expectations - hold doors for women, don’t spit, carry yourself well, don’t wear white after Labor Day, don’t leave the house without lipstick, etc, or else what would people think? Having an inviolate personal bubble is kind of recent.
I was reminded of this the last time a man came up to me out of the blue and said something like “Smile, will you?” He looked familiar, and then I realized it was one of my daughter’s teachers from two years ago. It’s a small town, and by now I might actually have met half of it. I have the right to disengage from the public to the best of my ability, but I cannot reasonably expect the general public to completely disengage with me, so sometimes we’re at odds. In that case a little down time and a little Gewürztraminer does wonders. YMMV.
Helpful hint - a Muscato or Piesporter may increase your mileage.
If I may, though, your general public are people you know; for the most part, it sounds like, these are not complete strangers and simply living among them is a de facto social situation in a small town. There is a mutual accountability in a small town, as dependent as people are on each other.
I was referring to the passersby who are strangers that **Baker **appeared to be referring to in his post.
I will be testing the Piesporter theory soon, and thanks.
All we know is that he’s accustomed to social pleasantries from people on the street. So I’m thinking that it’s either a generational difference or he’s in a place where no one is a stranger, so to speak.
A teacher in a small town? He’s probably one of the best “new person” detectors there. They know everybody!
Back when Dad got his first job in a town of some 30K souls (or at least bodies) but only two local policemen, Mom and him spent several weeks in a hotel while they looked for a place to rent; I’d been left to stay with Dad’s mom. After ten days, Dad got a parking ticket which didn’t make any sense as he was legally parked. Turns out the local policemen were intrigued by the unknown car and had given him an invalid ticket so they’d meet him when he went to complain about it 
Small town teachers tend to be at about that level of knowing everybody, IME.
On the contrary: while you’re right that people used to have more restrictions on acceptable ways to look/dress in public, conventional etiquette decreed a much stronger “personal bubble”. It was considered actively rude to address or request attention from anybody you didn’t know, except for an impersonal request like asking directions or the time, which was supposed to be preceded by a deferential phrase such as “Excuse me”.
Telling a random stranger to smile, or commenting on their appearance, or acting as though you expect them to greet you, has never been acceptable in polite society. (With some exceptions for small and informal communities where everybody more or less knows everybody else anyway.)
I have a question for the women here. The NY Times article yesterday, After Donald Trump, Will More Women Believe Their Own Stories?, has some interesting points.
It goes on to say
How does this match with your experience? I know in Japan that women traditionally didn’t speak out and many were and are blamed for it. I very much get that this has been a large issue in the States as well.
Many men will give lip service that although we now are “enlightened” so of course no one will say “it’s never the woman’s fault” yet at the same time ask if the women weren’t a “teeny, tiny bit part of the problem” in a way that guys don’t seem to get questioned the same.
I can think of several incidents where people I know were victims of crimes in which they could possibly be partially “at fault” for doing something stupid but they weren’t called out in the same way that I hear of women being told that they shouldn’t have been drinking, or were in the wrong place, etc.
The incident occurred over 20 years ago, so taking the guy to the police may not have been that productive and certainly would have embarrassed the woman much, much more. She certainly looked like she DID NOT want to have any more attention on her.
This has changed, in no small due to education from the transportation companies and public service campaigns. People would be much more likely to take the perpetrator to the police and the victim would be more likely to press charges.
On another occasion, I did catch someone groping a woman. I caught the guy instead of upending him but the lady did not want to go to the police. Other times friends have helped and where the women did press charges.
There has also been large scale public service campaigns against sexual harassment and Trump-type of behavior in the workplace. As drinking is almost mandatory in Japan, this can be a nightmare for women, especially young women just entering a company. Corporations will have annual overnight trips where people become drunk, and we all know how some men, especially bosses, behave in these circumstances.
As far as rape, it’s terribly under reported both to the police and in the media, but I honestly don’t know by how much. A report on television may say a woman was abducted from such and such a place and released “safely” several hours later.
There still is very much a shame attached and part of the silence in which Japanese typically handle problems.
For most women, absolutely the first thought is “what did I do wrong?”
An NPR story that ran yesterday brought up another important point: in these situations where a man with some authority or power requests sexual attention from a young woman, even something as mild as a hug or kiss, the woman often complies not because she wants to but because she feels she HAS to. It’s the power imbalance that makes her feel compelled but to a bystander it will look exactly like she was willing. I think we have recognized this well in the workplace because HR training often talks about how a boss should never “consort” with someone who reports to him. But we haven’t yet expanded this to cover:
interns and politicians
starlets and studio producers
female reporters and renowned male stars
etc.