I don’t have the same emotional reaction to the idea as OP, probably because I wasn’t raised with it. My parents (and pretty much all the parents I knew) both worked and had a fairly egalitarian relationship. Granted, my mom did more “indoor” chores while my dad did more “outdoor” chores, but I was never made to feel that I had to model my relationships that way. It was taken for granted that I would grow up to support myself and make my own choices. So I react to the idea of a woman being “kept” by a man with a kind of bemused disapproval tempered by a general belief that people should be able to do what works for them. But that would not work for me.
I do appreciate men who acknowledge that the world is a more dangerous place for women and are willing to help out, while also being willing to take “no” for an answer. I once took a scuba diving specialty course on night diving one-on-one with a male instructor. After one of our three dives together, he was about to leave while I was still packing up my gear in the parking lot, when he hesitated and said, “uh…I just realized I was about to leave you alone in the dark…” I laughed and waved him off, but I appreciated that he thought to offer to stay. I would not have appreciated it if he had insisted.
I think some of this ties in with women being taught to fear any man not a relative. Absolutely, there are some predators out there. Equally true, most men are decent human beings. I don’t need a man to protect me from other men, I do not need to be “claimed” by a man to be safe from other men because, frankly, the sort of man whose going to harm me isn’t going to be deterred by my being “owned” by another man, he’ll just try to find a way around that “inconvenience”.
The epitome of this meme of “all men are dangerous and you need a protector” came when I mentioned that a friend took me out to a shooting range (actually, it was Doper Billy Rubin) to try out several of his guns. I was relating this to someone I worked with at the time and she actually gasped at the notion that I went somewhere with a man I wasn’t related to - wasn’t I afraid that he might… try something?!?
I looked at her and said “Honey, no man who has plans to rape me is going to hand me a loaded AK-47 and say “Enjoy!” There’s a reason they call guns the great equalizer.”
I think the whole “world is dangerous” zeitgeist is used to keep women in their place in certain conservative circles. I remember listening to atheist call in show about women’s status in marriage and some older sounding guy called in saying that women should submit to their husbands because in the Bible, men are commanded to be willing to give up their lives to protect their wives as Christ gave up his life for the world. Women aren’t under that obligation, so they should be willing to be submissive for that protection privilege.
I wanted so bad to ask that guy a) if he was married and if he was, ask him b) how many times (in round figures) he had actually laid his life on the line to protect his wife? Five? Ten? Twenty?
Because I’m willing to bet he doesn’t have to fight off bears everyday to put food on the table.
This is the sort of guy who says to his wife, “Aw baby, you know I would take a bullet for you if I had to. Now run make me a sandwich like a good little girl.” Meanwhile, his wife is condemned to life of servitude for the promise of physical protection that she will probably never have a chance to collect on.
Since he was alive enough to call in to the show, it seems he hasn’t had to lay his life on the line to protect anyone, yet. That doesn’t mean he never will, or that he wouldn’t do it if a situation required it.
This thread is largely about the social expectation that people are raised with. Some girls are taught that their independence is secondary to the wants and needs of others, some boys are taught that their physical safety is secondary to others. Neither message has to end badly, but they can.
Just to be clear, I’m not saying that some guy’s position as potential cannon fodder gives him the right to order his wife around and expect her to defer to him. I just find it to be an interesting comparison, or counterpoint, to this thread. Men and women are both taught that they may have to sacrifice their own desires for the needs of others. We just give up different things.
Yes, but it seems the thing men is expected to give up, while harder, only pops up once in a blue moon. While the things women expect to give up happens everyday.
Even in housework, men cleans the gutter (once a year), women cleans the kitchen (once day).
There’s nothing wrong with partners looking out for each other and looking after some of their needs. In medical school, we were taught the overly paternalistic view (but not completely wrong) that the man takes care of the woman who takes care of the children. Of course, it goes without saying there are many other types of relationships.
No one wants a return to the days when women were dependant and undereducated - a strong and smart woman is sexy. (For me, strong and smart are absolutely required). But it is okay for a woman to allow herself to be led on a dance floor or have some of her needs provided for. A healthy relationship involves somewhat equitable give and take. As you get older, or physical or mental health declines, having someone there to address your needs may seem a lot more desirable.
It’s rare that men are killed when trying to protect others, but it’s a pretty steep price to pay on those rare occasions. And I expect some number are hurt while they’re up on a ladder cleaning the gutters, or changing a tire on the side of a busy road. Men are still raised to do those risky things. My grandfather lost two fingers in a snowblower and a toe in a lawnmower.
But I’m not trying to make this a case of one-upmanship. This is something that men and women have in common; that we’re raised to sometimes treat our partner’s needs as more important than our own. By pointing it out I was hoping we could understand each other better.
I have the most non-traditional traditional relationship with my husband. We split the chores how many expect. He does the outside chores and I do the inside chores. He fixes the broken things and I manage the finances. He maintains the cars and I take care of school stuff. However, it only ended up this way due to our individual needs. I’m allergic to grass so mowing the lawn means rashes for me. He does it so I don’t have to deal with that. I’m an engineer and love spreadsheets, so I do the finances. The only thing that chafes at me right now is that I have to manage a lot of the chores. He’s willing to do them, but he rarely initiates it. I have to tell him to do things. Now, some of this, I’ve given up. If he wants his bathroom to be a toxic waste dump, that’s on him.* Maybe I’ll find more things I can give up on and will be happier for it.
*I often say one of the best things that happened in our marriage is getting separate bathrooms. I love him to death but he is disgusting.
I have an uncle I really wanted to slap round the head for that crap- he smugly claimed, basically, that’s it’s fine that he expects my aunt to wait on him hand and foot, because when there’s burglars in the house, who’s going to be the one to go downstairs to sort it out, eh? Is she going to do it? That’d be ridiculous, hah!
He’s pretty much morbidly obese and has never been in a fight in his life, but this delusion that he’d somehow Do Something more useful than be thwacked over the head before the hypothetical burglars continued to burgle the place is apparently equal in value to the day-in-day-out cleaning, cooking (including managing his blood sugar levels, while he tries to sneak snacks) and doing everything for him bar watching the football.
What is it with those guys who are convinced that they’re secret badasses, just waiting for the moment, despite an utter lack of any kind of skill or training?
The question makes me think about my ex-wife, who married and divorced four times (I was #1.) She had her chance with husband #3 - he wanted a traditional stay-at-home wife, who kept house and helped entertain his clients. She loved to show off her domestic skills, and wanted an opportunity to work on her art.
According to her, the marriage worked well for about ten years, but she gradually got bored with it. She told her husband she wanted to go to graduate school, he said that wasn’t part of the plan, and the marriage crumbled shortly afterward.
I wouldn’t recommend taking marital advice from my ex-wife, but it does seem that Being Taken Care Of isn’t always as good as it looks like.
The women I’ve taken care of seemed to like it just fine. But then, I’ve taken care of some pretty exceptional women, so that may not be indicative of the norm.
I’m going to take a wild guess here (based partly on what I recall of your posting history) and assume that if those women you’re taking care of decided one day that they wanted to take the lead in something (household, a profession, whatever) you’d have no objection.
I think there are different definitions and manner of being “kept”. Some are toxic, some are positive. Context matters.
The deal of doing all the work of the household in exchange for spending money is bullshit. That being said, I could kinda use a wife sometimes. Being on the provider side of things is actually pretty sweet. I mean, you gotta work anyway and it’s nice not to also have to take care of the cooking, cleaning, laundry and shopping on top of that. Worst case scenario is having a lazy good for nothing man around the house who refuses to get a job OR do domestic work. That blows ALL the chunks. Been there, done that, would never risk that mess again.
Funny this should come up - my husband and I were talking about this yesterday to some degree. When it comes to “being taken care of,” are we talking the guy does everything for me, or the guy earns all the household money? Because the two are all tangled up for me.
I want to keep working because for me not working would create a perceived power imbalance. I hardly feel the need to exit, but having my own money is a good backup if that ever arises; also, the thought of asking permission to spend money (something I’d feel obligated to do if I didn’t work) just makes me squirm.
I’d also feel obligated to do all the chores whether that were an actual requirement of such an arrangement or not. I do sometimes fantasize about someone else doing everything for me, but having visited places where that’s routine for several months on end (like India), that just feels weird and uncomfortable to sit around while someone else cleans. I didn’t even like being around when we had a cleaning service because I felt so awkward that I wasn’t helping.