Women: your opinion of orgasmic birth

Great Debates
61

Sometimes. Sometimes it’s forced on them because of ignorance, sometimes because of medical need. Sometimes it’s just straight up chosen for completely non medical reasons (do I really need to repeat the “Too Posh To Push” cliche?)

Do I judge the first (ignorance)? A bit, to be honest. If a woman didn’t know that narcotics can cause a baby to be groggy and miss the first vital hour of quiet alertness when breastfeeding is easiest to establish, or that epidurals, statistically speaking, lead to greater incidences of shoulder dystocia and c-sections, I do sort of judge her for not finding that out beforehand. I most certainly judge her doctor or midwife negatively for not making that clear during the pregnancy, when her head is clear and she’s making her birth plan. I REALLY judge the anesthesiologists who don’t make side effects and risks clear when they’re getting the “informed” consent signed, and I see that time and time again. Now if she knew that, weighed the risks and benefits and chose it anyhow, then no, I’m not judging that. If you have a need for pain relief, get the pain relief! But do it knowing what the risks are and try to ameliorate the ill effects (by, for example, having a Lactation Consultant ordered to make up for the missed early breastfeeding opportunity.)

Do I judge the second (medical need) negatively? Absolutely not. Preaching to the choir on that one, and if you’ll read my quote again, you’ll notice that I was one of those - I *planned *the low lights and water birth, but had an emergency c-section at 23 weeks because that’s what was needed to save the life of my baby (and possibly me.)

Do I judge the final group - those who don’t medically need interventions, but choose them anyhow? Yes, absolutely, I do. I think they’re taking foolish risks with their lives and their infants’ lives, and I judge that as negatively as I would a parent who gives their toddler a lit cigarette and a beer.

OB was a very difficult rotation for me. Professionally speaking, you’re not allowed to “judge” any decision, no matter how frivolously or selfishly made. But yeah, in my heart, I do. We all do, because not every decision is made well or with full consideration of risks vs. benefits.

I’m all for supporting my sisters, but that doesn’t include condoning, through praise or silence, every action that every mother makes. Some people *are *shit parents, sometimes starting with their decisions during pregnancy. Sometimes even good parents, myself included, make poor decisions. We may artificially stroke my self-esteem by telling me I’m *always *wonderful and my choices are just as good and valid as any other choice I could have made, but it’s bullshit and, in the end, I know when I made a bad decision, and people pretending I was wonderful doesn’t help.

62

I’m not the first one to bring up cramps in this thread, and I hope you can appreciate the irony of your trying to tell me how much pain my cramps caused me. Obviously it’s nowhere near the pain of childbirth, but thanks to a tipped uterus they were enough to make me pass out cold more than a couple times. I think this whole debate is a good illustration of how painful experiences vary from person to person.

63

Yes they certainly did.

They did that, too. Though it was far more recent that menstrual cramps were dismissed (I’ll give you a hint: it was during MY lifetime, but not yours).

I can’t tell if you are being deliberately disingenuous here.

64

Perhaps not, but it is an attack if someone suggests that the only reason you felt pain in the first place is because you have been conditioned into believing it by the patriarchal hegemony or whatever. It is a stupid and ridiculous attack, but an attack nonetheless.

65

Is the first hour really all that vital for breast feeding? I mean, I’m sure plenty of women have non medicated childbirths and then are just too exhausted to deal with breast feeding.

66

It’s pretty important, yeah. You have a window of about an hour or so after the baby is born when he (or she) is typically awake and interested. Getting breastfeeding started at this time tends to be a lot easier and less complicated than if you wait until after the baby has fallen asleep and then woken up and is now hungry/disoriented/whatever. I mean, no, it’s certainly not impossible to establish a solid breastfeeding relationship if you don’t manage to start in the first hour, but it’s helpful if you can.

67

Yes, it appears it is. Not that it can’t be done other ways if you miss it, but it’s such a perfect time for it, it’s almost as if nature “intended” it that way. :slight_smile: The infant is alert but quiet, a strange combination in newborns, who are generally awake and distracted or downright fussy, or asleep. And the mother, even after an exhausting labor, is usually awake and alert for that same time period if she’s unmedicated. Miss that time period, and difficulties in breastfeeding are much more likely and further interventions to teach latch and positioning more needed.

I’ll have to go look it up in my OB book, but that time period actually has a name, it’s so unique.

68

WhyNot could you please tell me what this:

has to do with this:

??

Really? People choose to have their baby go into distress during childbirth?
People choose to go into shock and lose consciousness requiring an emergency c-section?
People choose to spend 12 hours thinking that their baby is going to die?

'Cus I would be interested to meet those crazy ass people.

Or perhaps you mean that women choose to have PIH/pre-eclampsia necessitating the first intervention in the cascade?

I get that some women choose to have a planned c-section - based on my experience the first time I certainly will. That, however, has nothing whatsoever to do with the birth experience going wrong mid-birth and emergency measures needing to be taken. If you can honestly say that women would choose that sort of experience - well, I think you’re wrong.

69

Sure, but I’m sure there are some women who’d prefer not to deal with breast feeding right after giving birth. I mean, I’m not real huge on stamina, so after I’ve given birth (hypothetically), they can either clamp it on while I pass out or they’ll have to wait until baby’s woken up again because I’m so not putting in the extra effort. Then again, with my track record, I may just be one of those few women who really *is /I] too posh to push. :smiley:

70

I have no idea how much pain your cramps caused you. I’m sure they sucked. I’ve had bad ass hospital requiring cramps and they totally sucked.

I’m laughing at your notion that having cramps somehow gives you insight into the experience of childbirth. Let me assure you - it does not.

71

Well, you didn’t ask if there are some women that would prefer for the first hour not to be vital; you asked whether the first hour is vital or not. You can maybe quibble about how “vital” is “vital”, but it’s a pretty important time period if you care about establishing breastfeeding. Being tired does not make it unimportant. :slight_smile: Although as WhyNot said, usually the mom is still feeling relatively alert/awake in that period, too. For me, it was like running a really long race. It was a huge physical effort, and I’ll sleep well later on, but I don’t need to fall asleep instantly the second I’m done. There’s time for holding the baby and nursing him a little bit, etc. Then you and the baby both fall asleep and it’s all good.

Edit: This was in response to Freudian Slit.

72

No, those would all be medical necessities, not choices.

But some seemingly small interventions chosen for non medical needs, like putting a healthy mother with no risks flat on her back in bed and strapping an external fetal monitor to her, are indeed choices which can snowball into further and further interventions. It makes doctors twitchy when the monitor can’t pick things up well and they see decels on the strip that may not be happening in reality. So then they put in an internal monitor, breaking the water, which starts the clock ticking towards a c-section should she not progress in the time span allotted by hospital policy. Surprise! Another c-section.

The *monitor *was the first bad choice she made. Staying in bed was the second. Lying flat on her back instead of her side was the third. And, I’ll grant you, hospital staff can be such bullies that most women don’t realize these are their choices, but it’s a choice, again, made from ignorance, that leads to further and further interventions. It looks like hell-in-a-handbasket, but it was triggered by a choice.

73

I think you’re 100% correct.

The time the offspring leaves the mother in mammals is a trade off. It would be much less stressful to the mother to deliver the fetus when it was the size of a ping pong ball, but the fetus would be to undeveloped to survive. Infants would do better if they were larger and more mature at birth, but it would kill the mother to have them.

Take the maximum size a fetus can grow in the uterus without making it lethal for the mother to get it out and you get gestational length.

  • it is the point where the process is most safe for both mother and child, but as natural processes go, it’s one of the most unsafe.

That doesn’t have anything to do with the associated pain. Most women experience labor as pain, some do not. Alas, I was not one of the lucky ones. Nobody expects running marathons not to hurt, although I’m sure some people don’t feel pain after 26 miles.

74

Actually that part was ok for me - I didn’t actually feed him, so much as cuddle with baby which was actually kind of nice. It is sort of the point of the whole thing (cuddling with baby, I mean).

With that in mind, you are right that some women probably aren’t up for it, then or ever. My roommate in the hospital had a preeme (36 weeks) and she kept saying she wanted to breast feed. Well, I guess many babies that are born early or are small aren’t strong enough to suckle at the breast - the mom has to pump to get the milk flowing and give the little one a chance to get a bit stronger so they can take over.

Roomie kept refusing to pump saying she wanted to breast feed but wouldn’t pump and baby should do it himself. Oh dear.

Mind, in the middle of the night when my little guy was actually sleeping, her little guy was crying his face off (probably because he was hungry) and she got up and pushed his bassinet into the hall!! Oh dear, oh dear.

I think she must have had PPD in a big way right off the bat because everything she said about her baby (who apparently was planned) was just…off. I really hope she was able to get some help with him.

75

WhyNot, I like you a lot, and I’m sure you didn’t intend it this way, but this sounds unbelievably smug.

Not everyone is a nurse, and I’m gonna go ahead and assume that lots of people don’t dedicate every moment of their pregnancy to acquiring an encyclopedic knowledge of obstetrics. While I’m all for educating oneself on the subject, I don’t think it’s productive to tell women that trusting their doctor is a bad choice.

76

I am not a night person 10pm is late for me. I gave birth at 2:15am after maybe an hours sleep at around 11pm. My water had broken 18 hours earlier and I couldn’t hold any food down during that entire time, oh wait I did keep down some applesauce. I was non medicated (except for a shot of morphine that had worn off by that time) and fully awake until about 5am. Sleeping was the last thing on my mind when my baby was handed to me.

In all honesty “holy shit, what do I do now?” is probably closer to what was I was thinking at the time.

77

This is a big Your Milage May Vary issue as well. I was put under general anesthesia with my first child for a C-section. [Reason- there was only anesthetist in the hospital at the time and he wouldn’t come up to labor and delivery because he had other patients getting operated on], and didn’t see her for hours and hours. The nurses gave her a bottle immediately. I tried to breast feed her when she was 6 hours of age and she latched on nursed like nobody’s business. Her younger home birth, no drugs, immediate offer of breast brother had a few days of troubles before he got the hang of it.

78

Right. I tried to throw in a lot of “typically,” “usually,” etc., in my prior posts to show that I’m aware that these situations are not universal. I was just giving some general information and then illustrating with my own personal experiences.

79

Hm, okay. Fair enough. The whole thing just seems so loaded, though. You know, “Don’t use medication during birth because then baby will be too tired to breast feed properly and then he’ll never learn…” It’s just so much pressure. I mean, at some point, don’t you pretty much have to say, “Fuck it, it’s not going to be perfect but babies aren’t made of glass”? I think almost every pregnant woman does something that some person considers “wrong” but for the most part, babies come out all right.

I’m also curious about the monitors, WhyNot. I know that lying in a bed isn’t always the most efficient way of giving birth, but what’s wrong with the monitor?

80

You’re awesome. :wink: