Women's clothing and where one's eyes fall

[AHunter3]

I don’t think it is inherently any more incumbent upon women to consider how the way they choose to dress may affect the libidos of people who are attracted to women than upon men to consider how the way they dress may affect the libidos of folks who go for men.

(Or folks who don’t identify as either, for that matter).

Having said that, in the world as we know it, women are more accustomed to being put on display and evaluated for their [del]fuckability[/del] desirabiliity. This results in the perhaps-unfair assessment that if she’s female and doing things that elicit sexual responses in the viewers, she damn well knows what she’s doing. I have problems with that formulation, too, but what the hell, let’s go with it for the sake of argument.

Where does the problem lie?:

• She’s ruining things for women who just want to show up and work. Because her behavior is underlining the notion that that’s all we exist for, to be assessed for our [del]fuckability[/del] desirability.

• She’s validating the complaint of some men that women want to have it both ways: that women should not be perceived and treated as sex objects, but sometimes women want to be perceived and treated as sex objects. See above statement about ruining things for other women, but also that men could feel infringed by this.

• She’s coasting on her sexuality as a stand-in for competency at her job. If enough of the folks who are attracted to women and who call the shots find her compellingly cute she can get away with sub-mediocre performance at the tasks for which she was hired.

I have seen a handful of threads about the incest taboo and how guys with totally hot sisters learn easily enough (if it even required learning) to regard their hot sister as a person who happens to be hot to other people but unto whom sexual feelings just don’t happen.

That sort of underlines the fact that people can be conditioned or can condition themselves or can otherwise do things in their head to think of a person in such a way that their sexual appeal is somehow irrelevant.

You should not [del]shit where you eat[/del] pursue sexual-romantic relationships among your coworkers anyhow. Do the incest-taboo thing. And get over it.

[Robot_Arm]

@AHunter3

I don’t think it is inherently any more incumbent upon women to consider how the way they choose to dress may affect the libidos of people who are attracted to women than upon men to consider how the way they dress may affect the libidos of folks who go for men.

I’ve been trying to think of a situation that might be analogous for men, if not a direct opposite. If a man wore biker gear, a Harley Davidson t-shirt, or something with the name of a rapper known for particularly violent lyrics, would that be okay? How about if two male co-workers were talking over lunch about visiting a strip club? Neither of those things directly impact their female co-workers, but probably wouldn’t make a favorable impression. Is it up to the guys to change their behavior, or for the women to ignore the distraction it creates?

[Shodan]

Doesn’t anyone else have the ability to look without being obvious? She puts the goods on display, I admire them (discreetly), everyone is happy and no one gets hurt.

I have sat thru any number of meetings that would have been brightened up by a little cleavage. It’s better than having to listen for the fourth time why offshore isn’t getting the QA testing done, and how we need to leverage our core competencies and plan for the unexpected and how re-doing the spreadsheets in a different format will allow us to better track how much we are missing deadlines by.

I’m not talking about staring, and I am not going to make any assumptions about how she can do her job. I just need the specs document. A little jiggle is appreciated, but optional.

Regards,
Shodan

[Quartz]

@Robot_Arm

I’ve been trying to think of a situation that might be analogous for men, if not a direct opposite.

How about the medallion man I mentioned upthread? Shirt unbuttoned very low, big medallion or pendant hanging from the neck, hairy chest somewhat visible.

[Tzigone]

She’d possibly feign indignancy if she were to be hit on or catch a lingering stare, but as a woman, I’d think she was full of shit. We know exactly how much attention we get and how to calibrate it. She’s on a warpath wearing clothing that way. You’d best give her a wide berth.

This member of “we” sure as hell doesn’t know or calibrate.

Most of the time, I’m much more like

Probably just likes the top and necklace. I’ve worked in offices with only women and there have been some who wear low-cut tops even though there are no men around. If I look in the mirror and think I look good, I just think that I look good today. I don’t think about how men are going to perceive me or my intentions.

And, extra points on the mirror thing. Or just not thinking certain things. I wore certain sweater to my parents’ house on Christmas that’s fine sitting up, but gaps when bending over too far (because it’s not snug against the skin)…and I knew I’d be the one passing out presents, I just didn’t think about it when dressing that morning. Wasn’t trying to provoke sexual interest from my relatives.

[MoonMoon]

@Quartz

How about the medallion man I mentioned upthread? Shirt unbuttoned very low, big medallion or pendant hanging from the neck, hairy chest somewhat visible.

I don’t know - let me go poll some women in 1979 and get back to you.

[Lemur866]

See, part of the problem is that I don’t think there’s such a thing as “dressing sexy” for men. I mean, there’s dressing in clean, well fitting clothes that aren’t rumpled or torn. There’s dressing in a sharp suit and tie. But there’s no such thing as dressing in a skimpy outfit that translates to “dressing sexy”.

[Maggie_the_Ocelot]

@Dropo

The necklace is the key here; it drew attention to her breasts, indicating she wants men to stare there. As has already been mentioned by others, this is a dual strategy: get men to view her favorably by playing to their instincts; and make men who stare uncomfortable to retain a measure of psychological leverage (i.e., control) over them. It strikes me as manipulative yet common, and no doubt some men will fall over themselves falling for it.

Um, no? I wear a necklace almost every day, and it has never even occurred to me that it might draw the eye to my boobs. I wear it to decorate the otherwise-blank area between where my face ends and my dress begins. The necklace is shorter if the dress neckline is higher, longer if the neckline is lower, but that’s because of the aesthetics of decorating that blank place and nothing to do with wanting eyes on my boobs!

[Dropo]

@Maggie_the_Ocelot

Um, no? I wear a necklace almost every day, and it has never even occurred to me that it might draw the eye to my boobs. I wear it to decorate the otherwise-blank area between where my face ends and my dress begins. The necklace is shorter if the dress neckline is higher, longer if the neckline is lower, but that’s because of the aesthetics of decorating that blank place and nothing to do with wanting eyes on my boobs!

Your post (and others) lacks context and perspective. Specifically, we are here dealing with not just a necklace, but a conspiracy of fashion decisions. Along with the necklace (“…of a size, shape and color to draw attention to her cleavage” according to the OP), the woman was also bra-less and her top was presumably low enough to reveal what cleavage she had. That’s three fashion choices all designed to draw attention to her breasts. Two is a coincidence, three is a pattern (consciously or otherwise).

And then there is the setting in which this occurred. It was not a date or a social occasion of any kind, nor a casual outfit to do errands in. It was a business meeting. This raises at least a couple questions:

Was the woman dressed noticeably differently than on days when she had no similar meeting scheduled?

Of the others in the meeting, were any of them in positions whereby they might conceivably promote this woman?

I do not presume to know the answers to these questions, but they could conceivably have a significant impact on how all of us view this issue.

[Robot_Arm]

@Lemur866

See, part of the problem is that I don’t think there’s such a thing as “dressing sexy” for men. I mean, there’s dressing in clean, well fitting clothes that aren’t rumpled or torn. There’s dressing in a sharp suit and tie. But there’s no such thing as dressing in a skimpy outfit that translates to “dressing sexy”.

That’s what I was trying to get at in my previous post; whether a man might dress in a way that’s seen as aggressive or potentially violent. Is that just a passive fashion statement, or is the association unacceptable?

I did an internship many years ago at a small manufacturing company. I remember a couple calendars (from a tool company) with women in swimsuits posted around the shop floor. That seems to be the sort of thing that doesn’t happen anymore. If what a woman wears is a personal statement, why isn’t a calendar the same thing? Obviously, they’re not exactly the same thing, but both are a personal, aesthetic choice that doesn’t affect anyone else except through the message that it sends. At what point does the message become impossible to ignore?

[drivekiller]

[quote=“lorene, post:15, topic:810316”]

Do you also think that women who wear miniskirts to a bar are asking to be raped?

No, but they are certainly asking to be noticed in a sexual way. Which would seem to be a different purpose than office attire.

@lorene

Do you think girls shouldn’t be allowed to wear tank tops to school, lest they distract the boys?

No. But then, I don’t think the boys should be wearing tank tops in school either.

@lorene

I’m sensing a fair degree of victim blaming from you. I am a woman, too, and no, I don’t know exactly how to calibrate the attention I get from men. An outfit that goes unnoticed by one guy could earn me leers from.another. That’s on the leering guy, not on me.

Where is the victim here? As a thought experiment, imagine a young, athletic, well-endowed, male co-worker arriving at the office in spandex.

[carnut]

Women tend to dress for other women, not for men. A miniskirt is sometimes just a skirt, or an alternative to shorts. Please don’t be so self-absorbed to think we are displaying ourselves for your pleasure. We dress for mainly for OUR pleasure. For some women that includes getting noticed by men. For most of us - not.

[elbows]

Where one’s eyes fall, is determined entirely by the owner, of said eyes.

All else is madness.

[Orwell]

@elbows

Where one’s eyes fall, is determined entirely by the owner, of said eyes.

All else is madness.

Sure. But to play the devil’s advocate, are you suggesting that many people (both men and women) don’t dress a certain way to garner attention? That they don’t want people looking at them?

Also, how does looking at someone else harm them?

Women tend to dress for other women, not for men. A miniskirt is sometimes just a skirt, or an alternative to shorts. Please don’t be so self-absorbed to think we are displaying ourselves for your pleasure. We dress for mainly for OUR pleasure. For some women that includes getting noticed by men. For most of us - not.

But you can’t predetermine who looks at you, or in what way. You really can’t have it both ways. If you wear a miniskirt, you are inviting attention from both men and women, both positive and negative. Just be confident enough you don’t care.

All of this reminds me of the people who get tattoos and piercings, and wear outlandish clothes, and then complain that people stare. What do you expect?

[brainstall]

Without knowing the woman described in the OP, it’s hard for me to decide if she was being deliberately provocative, or just had a wardrobe misstep. I know when I was getting dressed for work, I didn’t always hit the mark for well dressed. Sometimes presentable was the best I could summon on a hurried morning.

I found, too, working in an office with much younger women, that my standards for office appropriate involved much less skin showing. Then again, the younger women weren’t the only ones with bare shoulders, so clearly, my sense of office style is hardly universal.

As far as men dressing provocatively - here are a few examples from my own experience. Hot young guy in the shipping department wearing tight tank tops in the summer. Yeah, he got noticed by most of the women, young and old. There was a man in accounting who was fit, and clearly worked out. He would wear bright coloured polo shirts made from a light synthetic that highlighted his muscles and showed erect nipples. Older man who wore a dress shirt that should probably have been worn with a t-shirt under it as I could see his chest hair and nipples through the thin fabric. I doubt this was done to attract attention and it’s more likely he was just unaware. I find a man’s chest very attractive, but sometimes, you just have to do your job and ignore the distractions.

[elbows]

No one suggested it harmed someone to be looking at them, not sure where you got that from.

Sure some people dress for attention, Mohawks, multiple face piercings, loud bright flashy fashion, short skirts etc, etc on endlessly.

No one is trying to say that’s in any way a bad thing. But when a person claims the other, being so attention seeking, is too distracting for them and then imply the other should change THEIR behaviour, because of it, they have crossed a line into their tastes dictating other’s style choices.

Do you honestly and truly believe all of the men at this meeting couldn’t concentrate on any of the company business because of this woman’s fashion choice?

Or just that one old dinosaur is getting bent because he could see cleavage…and no one else seemed to even care! There were likely other men present. Did they manage to focus? I’m guessing yes, just fine.

[Ashtura]

@Roderick_Femm

I tried to think of a male equivalent and couldn’t exactly.

Pulling your pants down a little and showing some “neck”?

[Kimballkid]

@Shodan

Doesn’t anyone else have the ability to look without being obvious? She puts the goods on display, I admire them (discreetly), everyone is happy and no one gets hurt.

I have sat thru any number of meetings that would have been brightened up by a little cleavage. It’s better than having to listen for the fourth time why offshore isn’t getting the QA testing done, and how we need to leverage our core competencies and plan for the unexpected and how re-doing the spreadsheets in a different format will allow us to better track how much we are missing deadlines by.

I’m not talking about staring, and I am not going to make any assumptions about how she can do her job. I just need the specs document. A little jiggle is appreciated, but optional.

Regards,
Shodan

Did you change the cover page on your TPS reports?

[MacLir]

@Nava

My Scottish client had “casual Fridays”. Most of the people in IT used that to bring out the souvenir or nerdy tees; the guys from Accenture didn’t wear ties.

And this guy wore an old white tee that had grown so thin you could have counted his very-black on very-white-skin chest hairs. As he was very tall and lean we called him “the long pig”, with our apologies to those lovely animals who turn garbage into ham.

Not to mention the Maori and other Pacific islanders, to whom “long pig” had a whole 'nother meaning. :rolleyes:

[Aji_de_Gallina]

@octopus

Her body. She chooses how she wants to dress.
Your body. You choose where you want to point your eyeball(s).

No. Biology contradicts that. You don’t choose where you point them.
You have to choose NOT to point them at the plunging neckline of the attractive woman.