"Women's Rights" blog says: virtual sexual assault should be a criminal act

[Redwing]

@Freudian_Slit

The fact that it’s a game makes it seem different, though, to me. If a random stranger calls up and breathes heavy, that’s different than if you were playing some telephone game (though the analogy falls apart here, I don’t know any telephone games). I just would draw a line between a random stranger coming up to you and harassing you, and someone doing it in a game where it’s already agreed that stuff isn’t real. I mean…say, you were playing a role play game in real time, and one of your friends is really sloshed and he says something like, “OK, my character gropes your characters tits,” and you get pissed off at him. Is that really sexual harassment? Does the game context make a diff?

Somewhat, but not entirely.

First there’s a not insignificant difference between playing a character in a PnP vs MMO RPG. For whatever reason, you are more you and less a character in an MMO type game than in a PnP; it’s like you’re driving your MMO toon, but acting your PnP character. So it’s harder to see the difference of a social action in an MMO being taken towards your character and not yourself.

Secondly, in a PnP it’s one of your friends getting sloshed and saying something stupid. Everyone else in the room is going to act as a break on the situation, providing some release from the tension caused by such a statement. In an MMO, it could be the creepy guy down the street, or someone a world away; and there’s no immediate way to know which it is.

In some ways, part of the violation implict in this type of harassment is that of context. It’s a game, an innocent way to while away some hours nuking monsters while chatting with your friends. Suddenly, the environment is different. It’d be like playing baseball in the local corprate league, and having the opposing catcher mutterring about how much he’d like to lick the sweat off you.

[Simplicio]

@Freudian_Slit

Is it sexual harassment when you’re in environment where you aren’t compelled to be and you experience sexual comments? Like, would a friend of yours repeatedly making a ref to your breast or ass or penis or whatever be illegal? Keeping in mind that they’re not actually threatening to do anything, but are definitely making sexual comments.

Yes.

I’m just extremely wary of equating “virtual groping” with real groping, though. If the creepy guy at the bar were saying sexual stuff to her I think that might be a better analogy. But again, would that be illegal or just sleazy?

The article explicitly doesn’t make that equivalence:

I don’t want to imply that virtual assault is the same thing as sexual assault by any stretch of the imagination

If you grope someone against their will, it’s sexual assault. If you just call them up and keep telling them how you’d like to grope them after they tell you to stop, its sexual harssement.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Frylock

If he does it repeatedly, after I ask him to stop, then that is paradigmatically sexual harassment.

You said you don’t think it’s harassment because he’s talking about what one character does to another character. But that doesn’t seem relevant. Regardless of the fact that the language is in terms of characters, it is very clear which actual person is being targeted by the remarks, by means of remarks about her in-game character.

Recall that sexual harassment includes not only sexual acts, but sexual comments as well, even sexual comments not about or directed at the victim.

Good grief.

Technically if I comment to a female co-worker that she looks nice in that dress I have sexually harassed her if she sees it that way.

At some point I think a little common sense and a bit thicker skin are in order.

The guy in the game is a jerk and annoying to be sure. Block him and alert a GM. I have not played this game but in my experience harassment claims get GMs’ attention like a lightning bolt and are generally dealt with very quickly. So, send the message to the GMs, logoff for a few minutes and come back.

Easily dealt with. Jerk will get the message fast that those antics don’t last long.

[Simplicio]

@Whack-a-Mole

Good grief.

Technically if I comment to a female co-worker that she looks nice in that dress I have sexually harassed her if she sees it that way.

No, you haven’t. Read the thread. Something like 5 people have made the point that its continuing to make suggestive remarks after the other person has asked you to stop that makes it harassement

[YogSothoth]

It should be ok to harass someone in a game without legal consequences. A person is voluntarily subjecting themselves to harm by participating in a game with an avatar. It’s almost like posting on a message board and we already know it’s legal to trick someone into suicide here, so sexual harassment in game seems much tamer.

[mswas]

Next thing you know they’ll want murder to be illegal in an online game. That’d put Goonswarm out of business.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Simplicio

No, you haven’t. Read the thread. Something like 5 people have made the point that its continuing to make suggestive remarks after the other person has asked you to stop that makes it harassement

Fine.

It remains it is a game. The person is online and in no way identifiable beyond their avatar. Nearly anonymous. Further, it is rather easily dealt with via in-game mechanics and procedures.

If the person playing is so easily upset over this they should re-think playing a game where this could happen. Anyone who goes online should be well aware of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and learn to cope.

[Trepa_Mayfield]

@YogSosoth

…It’s almost like posting on a message board and we already know it’s legal to trick someone into suicide here, so sexual harassment in game seems much tamer.

@Whack-a-Mole

Anyone who goes online should be well aware of the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory and learn to cope.

Holy fuck those people are messed up.

[YogSothoth]

@pedescribe

Mom tricks teen into suicide through MySpace

The ass was acquitted. Compared to that, sexual harassment seems hilarious by comparison. I think it’s something the online mods should handle, it shouldn’t be a criminal offense.

[Chessic_Sense]

@YogSosoth

Mom tricks teen into suicide through MySpace

The ass was acquitted. Compared to that, sexual harassment seems hilarious by comparison. I think it’s something the online mods should handle, it shouldn’t be a criminal offense.

Only if by “trick”, you mean “says mean things to”.

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Chessic_Sense

Only if by “trick”, you mean “says mean things to”.

Or by pretending to be someone she was not and telling the girl mean things that were also lies kind of tricked.

[Lemur866]

@Oakminster

In Everquest, some asshole started stealing my kills while I was trying to level a lower-level toon. Fine and dandy. I switched over to my raid level Druid, and just happened to see the harassing player looking for a teleport, something Druids are able to provide. So, without revealing Oak as the “big brother” of the “newbie” this guy harassed earlier, I grouped with him and agreed to teleport him.

Don’t Make Me Get My Main

[Freudian_Slit]

Okay, question–if it were a game where you could kill or assault someone but that wasn’t necessarily the object of the game, would it be jerk-y or harassment if you were killing or hurting someone else’s character even if they told you to knock it off?

[Oakminster]

@Freudian_Slit

Okay, question–if it were a game where you could kill or assault someone but that wasn’t necessarily the object of the game, would it be jerk-y or harassment if you were killing or hurting someone else’s character even if they told you to knock it off?

If it’s red, it’s dead.

Translated from Gamerspeak–if PVP is allowed by the game, then anyone on the opposing side is fair game at anytime, so long as they are PVP enabled. WoW has some servers that are PVP always, and some where PVP is allowed, but only if the player wishes to participate, as evidenced by flagging himself for PVP, or entering certain areas where PVP takes place regardless of flagging…like the battlegrounds.

That noted, there are certain matters of gamer-courtesy involved…I generally would not use one of my raid level characters to harass/annoy lower level characters. There’s no honor in that (yes, you get points for Honor in some games).

[Whack-a-Mole]

@Freudian_Slit

Okay, question–if it were a game where you could kill or assault someone but that wasn’t necessarily the object of the game, would it be jerk-y or harassment if you were killing or hurting someone else’s character even if they told you to knock it off?

I play an online game (EVE Online) where people can and do just that (hunt other people down and blow them up). Per game rules this is not only allowed it is encouraged. Whining about it won’t help.

There is a caveat to this. The GMs will not let you go all vendetta on someone and do nothing but chase that person around with the sole intent of making them miserable in a perpetual fashion. You can for a bit but otherwise it is considered griefing.

[aruvqan]

@Whack-a-Mole

I play an online game (EVE Online) where people can and do just that (hunt other people down and blow them up). Per game rules this is not only allowed it is encouraged. Whining about it won’t help.

There is a caveat to this. The GMs will not let you go all vendetta on someone and do nothing but chase that person around with the sole intent of making them miserable in a perpetual fashion. You can for a bit but otherwise it is considered griefing.

I have the killmail for ganking my corp CEO =)

[asterion]

@Mr.Excellent

I tend not to think that this should be a criminal matter, but I’m not sure this is the best reason why. To draw an analogy to sports for a moment - if I’m Tom Brady, and I get tackled, I don’t have a cause of action for assault - that’s just football. Even if the tackle results in a concussion, knee injury, whatever - still probably no cause of action. People can voluntarily and knowingly assume certain risks when they play a game. But, on the other hand - if Tom Brady gets tackled, and then his tackler proceeds to kick the heck out of him while he’s down until his own team drags him off - then, by all means, Brady has a cause of action for assault. He voluntarily consented to a certain level of violence - but not more.

Analogizing to this “Home” game - a player may consent to certain forms of misconduct from other players. (Getting killed/looted/insulted, whatever). But it doesn’t seem immediately absurd to think that there might be a higher level of bad conduct that players aren’t implicitly consenting to. Perhaps this category, including sexual harassment, could be in the same category as harassing emails.

Or not - truth be told, I’m more than a little leery of criminalizing conduct which seems so minor, and so readily avoided, that it’s a non-issue. On yet another hand, I’d be reluctant to employ that argument in the “real world” - I’d never tell a woman that her best solution is to simply avoid the popular local bar where the staff all make a point of groping her as soon as she gets in, because “after all, you don’t have to go there.”

In short: I think this is a hard, nuanced issue. And I don’t envy Sony for having to come up with a solution.

You didn’t need to come up with a hypothetical analogy, by the way. Albert Haynesworth (then with the Titans) stomped on the face of the Cowboy’s player Andre Gurode back in 2006. I still can’t believe it took a second penalty for him to be ejected and that he only got a five-game suspension and wasn’t brought up on charges. Or that Gurode didn’t press charges.

I don’t spend much time in Playstation Home, as I’ve yet to figure out what it’s actually good for. I’m pretty sure such behavior would be a TOS violation and get you kicked out at least temporarily. But the way I see it is that the Internet is the absolutely easiest place to ignore people. You can block them. You can report them. You can fairly easily change how people can contact you. It takes a real determined asshole to try to get around a block.

[MsRobyn]

Marty McSorley, who played for the Boston Bruins hockey team, was convicted of assault with a deadly weapon and got 18 months’ probation for it. The incident also effectively ended his NHL career. So in-game actions have had criminal consequences.

That being said, the Internet is a virtual world, nothing more. It’s full of immature assholes who get their jollies being immature assholes to other people. Ignoring them or reporting them for abuse is probably the most that should be done. I don’t see any logic behind legal action, unless said immature asshole decides to take his antics off-line, in which case he should be prosecuted for the actions he commits off-line. Otherwise, it should be up to the non-asshole to turn the game off.

Chessic Sense, the Megan Meier case wasn’t that simple. Megan had a history of psychological problems that Lori Drew knew about and was actively exploiting for her own ends. This wasn’t a case of some angsty teenager whining about how they’re being mean to her, it was a case of an adult sadistically manipulating a vulnerable child. That’s what makes it wrong, and that’s why so many people are upset that Drew was acquitted.

[Sanity_Challenged]

A game’s developers have the sole right to determine the laws of the land in their little virtual world. They determine what’s allowed, what’s forbidden, and how stringently those rules are enforced. Anybody who doesn’t agree with the developers’ setup is free to not visit their virtual world.

IMHO this roughly equates to getting all butthurt because you don’t like the laws of some fiction author’s fantasy world. Just put down the book and move on.

[Merneith]

FWIW - the harassment took place in a setting called Sony Playstation Home. Home is not a game, per se. It’s sort of a 3d lobby where Playstation owners can meet other other gamers, chat, arrange groups for gaming together and so on. Imagine if you were playing a game, and when you started it up, instead of clicking the ‘join game’ and chatting via text with other players, you had a 3d avatar and you each have your own ‘apartment’ and you’d walk your avatars over to meet up and enter the building for the game you want to play … it’s like that. IIRC, one of the games, a wargame, has a sort of sand table in teh lobby where you can plan out your attack.

But mostly it’s just a high concept 3d menu system. With lots and lots of advertising, naturally. Game companies sell clothes for the avatars and sponsor pavilions for their catalog of games and so on. And there’s little mini-games, like tennis & bowling. There’s a finite number of bowling lanes, for example. So you have to walk your avatar over to the bowling ally and maybe you’ll get to play or maybe you’ll just get to hang out, look at the advertising and watch other people play while waiting for a lane to open - in this infinite virual world.

So, basically very lame. And the general consensus is that it’s all just a corporate driven ripoff. But not really an MMO in the usual sense. Also the moderation is pretty much non-existant. Blame Sony for that but there it is. They include some sort of language filter and that’s about it.

And because it’s all so lame and there’s not much to do but browse the advertising, and no one’s really minding the store, sexual harassment has become the activity of choice. It’s such a cliche it was the subject of this Penny Arcade comic - A Penetrating Look - Penny Arcade

If it makes the person in the op feel better, the harasser probably assumed her female avatar was created by a man specifically to be the target of sexual harassment. The harassers were probably confused about why ‘she’ went off script. Yeah, it doesn’t make me feel better either.

Finally, because it’s still an epic read, “A Rape in Cyberspace”, by Julian Dibble.
http://www.juliandibbell.com/texts/bungle_vv.html

This article, published in 1993, recounts the goings on at LamdaMoo, an early multiplayer text based environment, when an evil clown created an object that let him hijack other people’s identities and force them to do awful things to each other. An interesting read and, all these years later, I still find myself wondering about my response to it.