Wonder Woman movie rumor

Cafe Society
81

Hey holmes, if you and others are so big into having Gina Torres play the role of an Amazon superhero, then I hope that someday they make a movie of her playing that role.

But I also hope for the sake of all of the dedicated Wonder Woman fans out there that they don’t title the movie “Wonder Woman”, but instead title it “Nu’ Bia”. You know why?

Because Wonder Woman isn’t black. The same reason that Superman isn’t gay, Batman isn’t three feet tall, and Aquaman doesn’t weigh 650 pounds.

There is nothing wrong with diversity. But diversity for diversity’s sake is lazy, pointless, and insulting in two ways: first to the dedicated fans for wiping out a character and replacing him/her with someone completely different (thus wiping out all of the continuity of the original), and also to the members of the minority who are expected to start loving the character simply because he or she shares a superficial characteristic that they possess. There is never a good time for such a demeaning lack of creativity.

82

How much more could you miss the point? You’re the one calling for whiteness for whiteness’s sake; I’m the one calling for Gina Torres for the sake of Gina Torres kicking ass. Her race has nothing to do with it. Diversity has nothing to do with it.

If racial purity in your comics is that important to you, that’s your deal–don’t try to pretend like I care about the race of the character.

Daniel

83

Okay, Okay, LHoD, let’s not make this sound like some kind of Comic Aryan Brotherhood. There are great non-caucasian characters out there, and some of them definitely deserve movies sooner or later. Blade’s a great example with mediocre movies, Steel’s a good example with a crappy movie.

But if someone makes a Batman movie, I don’t want Terry McGuinness. I don’t want Jean-Paul Valley. I want Bruce Wayne. He’s Batman. Similarly, Diana is Wonder Woman, Kal is Superman, et cetera.

Some of us do value the rich tapestry of continuity, and don’t want to see it sacrificed on the Hollywood altar of the almighty dollar.

That said, there is next-to-zero chance that Gina Torres will get this part. Hollywood will want someone marketable. Failing to get someone marketable, they will, if patterns hold true, “stick to what works” and cast a traditional tall statuesque raven-haired unknown.

84

Sorry, you didn’t sound like that, but Psycho Pirate was starting to sound that way.

Sure–but why is Diana’s skin color especially important? Why not cast the actress who can fill the role best, instead of the one that’s got the most appropriate physical characteristics?

Holy contradiction, Batman! As you say, Hollywood is unlikely to do this precisely because it may have marketing problems. In other words, Hollywood is likely to sacrifice the best actress for the role on the altar of the almighty dollar, not the other way around.

As I said before, it comes down to whether you believe keeping the physical appearance or keeping the attitude and personality is more important. I’d far rather have the attitude than the appearance. If there’s someone that can do both, fantastic–but the specifics of the actress’s appearance aren’t very important to me. She just has to be beautiful and asskickeriffic.

Daniel

85

Well, one, I don’t think Gina Torres fills the role best. Two, the role is both appearance and personality. Diana is what she is, and looks like what she looks like… 60 years of her portrayals, and 99.9999% of them, she looks roughly the same. Why didn’t they cast Mario van Peebles as Batman? He sure can play the stoic tough guy. Better than Michael Keaton, don’tcha think? Or hey, Isaac Hayes as Superman? Imposing guy, with a heart of gold?

What contradiction? I want them to hold to continuity and what has come before. They won’t do that if they think they can get more profit another way.

86

Dammit, CG! I was enjoying reading this discussion up unitl this point when my eyes started bleeding.

87

Oh, and to keep on topic:

Lynda Carter is indelibly etched on my brain as Wonder Woman. It would take some one with a lot of presence and charisma to change that. Gina Torres is not that woman for me.

If they could find some one who looks like Alex Ross’ paintings, and who could act as well, that would be perfect.

88

Please don’t put words in my mouth, Left Hand of Dorkness. I am not calling for whiteness simply for whiteness’s sake. Wonder Woman has almost consistently been portrayed for decades as a caucasian, brunette woman. I’ll agree that changing her race isn’t a problem if they choose someone who fits the character (BTW: I completely disagree with Gina Torres being a good Wonder Woman. Something is in the water on this board, and Firefly is revered far above what it deserves, but I digress…), as long as there is a good reason for dramatically changing the character. Gina Torres would make a GREAT Amazon…she just wouldn’t make a good Wonder Woman. Nor would she make a good Mr. Mxyzptlk, Robin, or Oracle, for exactly the same reasons.

However, I think consistency is important when you are casting and marketing a movie. What is wrong with choosing someone who looks like the character they are signed on to portray? It is a whole lot less confusing than choosing someone who looks nothing like the character has been portrayed, an image that is recognizable by millions of people. Look at the Superfriends, the JL Unlimited cartoon, and the VAST majority of the Wonder Woman comics. She pretty much looks the same to me.

I am not pretending you care about the race of the character. While I do care somewhat about the race of the character, it isn’t because of any racist overtones. It is simply a matter of continuity. You wouldn’t cast N’Sync and the Backstreet Boys to play Fat Albert and the Cosby Kids. :smack: It is my opinion that, whenever possible, the actor/actress should look the part. That is all.

89

That’s fine. I do. Just don’t suggest that I want a black woman to fill the role–I could give two shits if a black or white woman fills the role (and truth be told, I think there’s a slight argument to be made in favor of a white woman filling the role). I was Gina Torres to fill it, because I think she’d be awesome in it. Her skin color is almost immaterial to me, and to the extent that it matters, I want her in the role despite, not because of, her skin color. It’s the accusations of “diversity” that chafe.

I confess I don’t know who these actors are; I think I’ve heard of them, however. Batman has to be someone equally comfortable hosting a black-tie party and wearing nipply spandex while broodingly kicking criminal butt; if an actor who happened to be black was incredibly good at that, I’d have no problem with casting that actor as Batman.

You accused me (or rather my hypothetical Hollywood counterpart) of wanting a black Wonder Woman for the sake of profit, I believe, and then in your next sentence said Hollywood would never do that because it’d lose them money. That’s the contradiction I was looking at.

Daniel

90

There’s nothing to debunk. I’m simply asking that you treat all characters equally, not just the ones you think are being poised to usurp your image of a character.

In your opinion. Or do you consider the several fan sites, that do include her; abberations or honest historians to the Wonder Woman myth?

I got that, which is why I asked if Wonder Girl is irrelevant as well or John Stewart? They weren’t created from scratch and were lesser ‘versions’, of the original. The difference being, that the publishers kept them, while allowing Nubia to fade away (she survived the retcon). You see what I’m getting at? John Stewart was irrelevent for a decade; his origins didn’t change, his character did. If Nubia is irrelevant because of her origins, then John Stewart must be too, as he was just the replacement, substitute, stand-in for Hal Jordan. He was simply the “black” Green Lantern, the same as Nubia was the “black” wonder woman.

…but John Stewart isn’t irrelevant. What happened? All your negatives about Nubia are shared by several other WW characters that are still ‘mainstreamed’. Therefor it isn’t the origins that make a character irrelevant, but the direction of the leadership itself, which is often guided by the soceity in which it functions.

I have never suggested that Nubia replace Wonder Woman. I simply pointed out that prior to the Crisis, Diana was NOT unique. It may have been lame, but it was true…this is all your tangent. Yeah, I know you were just pointing out she was lame.

You seek to ignore moviation when it doesn’t suit you…i.e. Wonder Woman herself. “She was original” or there’s only ONE (let’s ignore that for now), so what? She was created to fill a perceived vaccum, same as John Stewart, Wonder Girl and Nubia. If creation for ‘social commentary’ = “lameness”, then Wonder Woman herself needs a cane.

In this, they are all equal. Their ultimate destination, however is different.

If Nubia was just a “black” Wonder Woman, then John Stewart was just a “black” GL. That was his purpose…to be a substitute for Hal Jordan, in a time when DC was being questioned about it’s lack of non-white characters. That was his role…but the character has evolved… He once became Green Lantern when Hal Jordan slipped in the tub and knocked himself unconscious and I believed he BORROWED Hal’s ring, it was Hal’s, not his. That’s not lame? The John Stewart you know today, is not the John Stewart I was introduced to in 1971/72.

There is a history here; you don’t consider it important, fine; but it still existed and shaped how the characters have grown. I see the difference, even if you don’t or won’t. I simply ask that instead of dismissing characters outright because of their origins, you dismiss because their characters weren’t fully developed…which has nothing to do with their origins, but the society at the time. They are interconnected. Nubia was created because of a lack of black images. Nubia was allowed to fade away, because having a black person headline a book wasn’t good business sense. Which reason makes the character irrelevant or does it not matter?

What the creators do with the character, has as much to do with the morays of society as it does with the creative ability of the artist/writers. Your 1980’s experience may think it’s lame, but your experience can’t rewrite history. That’s the way it was. It was easier in many instances to “blacken” up or “youthen” a traditional character, because it required less explanation and background story…lame maybe; but no more lame, then most of the stories that were being produced at the time. All you needed to know was that John Stewart was now GL…here ya go. Nubia is Wonder Woman’s twin…period, Kid Flash is well, “kid” Flash. Next panel. They are all the same.

What the character ultimately grows into is independent of their origins. Which is why I kept hammering that Nubia’s origin is no less “lame” than John Stewart or Wonder Girl. However you seemed determined to only hold Nubia to that level…under the excuse that this is only about Wonder Woman, it’s not. It could just as easily be about GL, or Iron Man or the early Teen Titans; even Mr. Terrific, if you didn’t appear to like that character.

BTW: There are “Officially” four Wonder Women: Diana, Nubia/Nu’bia, Artemis and Hippolyta.

I apologize for the length and the ‘hijack’.

91

Well, they shouldn’t chafe you, the ‘diversity’ diatribe was only a subset of the supporting material against Nubia.

No! Not so. But I can see how you would read it that way. I was assailing you for your devaluation of continuity, but then I tacked on the bit about profitability because that the usual reason Hollywood makes arbitrary changes to comic book properties. My apologies for the lack of clarity.

92

Okay, fair enough, and I apologize for the lack of understanding on my part. To be honest, I’ve skipped most of the Nubia stuff as something I couldn’t possibly care less about :D.

Daniel

93

What I want to know is, what does the host of The Daily Show have to do with Green Lantern and Wonder Woman?

94

Or, so now you beleive me. Well, that’s convenient.

As for fan sites : we’re geeks. We like miniutiae. We enshrine trivial details, and turn Boba Fett, a schmuck in a helmet with five lines in a minor role at best into a thing of worship. It’s what we do. It doesn’t mean we think Boba Fett should replace Han Solo.

Wonder Girl - editorial mistake, retconned into a passable “Wonder Woman Jr.” - largely overlooked outside of the Teen Titans for years, gets no respect and dies repeatedly - She has a measure of depth, but I don’t like her. Relevant? Sure, if you’re a Titans fan. Because there was enough of a seed of an idea in her to be molded into something that mattered, so someone did so.

John Stewart - failed as Jordan’s “replacement”. No one really wanted to read about him, except maybe as a novelty. But later, by placing him side-by-side with Jordan, they could develop him in a better direction, because then he could stop being “The Black Green Lantern” and actually become something worthwhile.

She was, until some idiot writer said… “Durr! The editors want diversity… hey, I know! I’ll change her origin story completely! Durr!” Wisely, the character was quickly placed on a back shelf, confined to the realm of trivia, soon after. She didn’t even appear in the Crisis, for crying out loud.

You’ve only got half of it, sport. “Created for social commentary as a crude creative afterbirth, with a stolen concept, and then never developed into anything more than that concept” = lameness, irrelevance, etcetera.

Not by a longshot.

The story’s only value was as a novelty. If he’d gotten three more mentions in various books, and we’d never heard of him again, that would’ve completed the deal, and these days, when someone asked who Green Lantern was, you’d get ‘Hal Jordan’, ‘Alan Scott’, or ‘Kyle Rayner’, and anybody suggesting there could be a black Green Lantern cast in a movie of the same name because ‘There was one that one time in that story with the tub’ would be laughed out of the room.

Lots of black people headlined books in that period. Your own example of Luke Cage.

Wonder Girl’s origin is as lame as Nubia’s. John’s is a step up because his very name isn’t screaming “Hey, look, we got a black guy in our book!”, and it was no retcon. Don’t even compare Mr. Terrific - his origin was no retcon, it was treated as a proper subplot in a book, and they developed him with an eye to longevity, not flash-in-the-pan movelty. And he wasn’t displacing or encroaching on an established character, the original having been dead a good long time.

The real one, a footnote, an aggressive psycho, and a clever use of time travel. I give them points for Hippolyta - that was nifty. The other two were just there to reflect on Diana.

Jean Paul Valley was “officially” Batman, but no fan of the character would ever suggest a movie starring that version of the Bat. He was a temp.

95

Just a few comments, and I’ll get out of the way …

*Minor nitpicky: It’s LYNDA Carter, not “Linda.”

*God bless Lucy Lawless, I think she’s a worthy possible Wonder Woman, but as Wonder Woman movie rumors have been around for at least the past five years, I know her name has been brought up, and last I heard (please don’t make me cite, I can’t find this just now), she has no interest in the part.

*If I’d pick any “name” actress, I’d choose Jennifer Connelly. I think one problem with a “name” actress though is the preconception you have of her. Most anyone you name, you can associate with a previous part they had and may have a hard time shaking that image. (Yeah, Keaton did get away with it in “Batman,” but I think we’re better off with a relative unknown.)

  • As someone who’s really longed for a Wonder Woman, I hope to all that’s holy that they get it right. Please.
96

It really, really sounds like you are.

What characteristics of Torres are you looking at that allow her to play an Amazon but not Wonder Woman? Can you name any that aren’t that she’s black? Why does Wonder Woman have to be white? Because she was originally? How many comics with black leads do you think would get sold in 1942? (How many get sold now?) WW was also originally a secretary who loved getting tied up, but both are absent from today’s comics. (As is her last name.) About the only thing that hasn’t changed is that she’s a chick with big knockers who fights bad guys. Heck, in the '40’s she wore a knee-length skirt. I can tell you right now I don’t give two bits what color the actress is, but I’d be damn disappointed if they gave her the original skirt back.

Because it systemitizes and prolongs the racism that existed when the characters were created. Orval Faubus has been dead for a decade but as long as good parts are being written about characters that had to be created white (or they’d never sell in Savannah or Rochester), the racists of decades past are still effectively closing off opportunities to black actors who could excel in those roles. Jesus, could you imagine The Shawshank Redemption if they’d had to cast David Caruso?

Big tits and an eagle on her chest and I think most everyone would get it.

'Cus that’s a property that’s intrinsically about race. Wonder Woman is certainly a story about gender roles (and bondage fantasies), but the character’s message has nothing to do with race. Ergo, there’s no reason her casting session has to.

–Cliffy

97

Oh, please god, no. Alex Ross’ WW looks like a drag queen on steroids in a bad wig.

Nitpick: She wore culottes.

Steering away from the Gina Torres discussion for a bit - Morena Baccarin really looks very much like certain renditions of Diana. Not sure how tall she is, though.

98

I’ll say it again. I never said intented or promoted Nubia as a replacement for Diana Prince.

Again you miss the point. John Stewart’s whole run until the recently was a novelty. Placing him side by side with Jordan, didn’t make him his own man. Making him the LEAD GL in the JL tv series and JLU did. Until then he was an also ran…Hell even Guy Gardner got more print and he was in a coma for twenty years. Today for many viewers who NEVER read a GL comic, John Stewart IS the Green Lantern. Why? because someone decided NOT to have another all white Justice League AND spent the time to develop the character…something they had never done before.

The point and THIS is where a non Diana Prince look alike enters, Wonder Woman like GL , allows for the possibly of someone other than Hal Jordan, Alan Scott or Kyle Rayner to wear the ring…because there’s a history of someone other than those three. It may be an unknown reference, a silly reference; but that doesn’t invalidate it; outright. John Stewart’s role in the JL/JLU is proof of that.

Luke Cage was the ONLY black person headlined in a comic until 1977. Then came Black Lightning. The Panther SHARED his title Jungle Action, with reprints of the 1950. The rest were either one shots like Stewart or supporting characters like Gravedigger Jones. I don’t know how you got “lots” from my examples.

I know you’re not interested in pre-80’s comic history, but perhaps this will help you understand the ‘revelance’ of black characters in comics during the 70’s.

Now we’re getting somewhere.

Sure he was. Guy Gardner was to be the original Green Lantern. He was in coma.They could’ve woken him up and have HIM be the replacement. They could’ve had one of the other corps member be the temp. Only it’s 1971 and DC is getting hammered for their lack of ‘diversity’. So they create a situation in which another person, a ‘black’ person gets to be GL…temporary of course. His adventures are few and far inbetween and for nearly three decades, he’s a footnote, but because they didn’t rename the book “Black” Green Lantern, he’s a step up? Why do suppose they didn’t? Because THEN they would have create a separate storyline…but like I said earlier is easier to just blacken the character.

Mr. Terrific was created to add diversity. Yes it was well done. Yes he’s a great character, but he’s cut from the same desire that Nubia was.

99

Technically Wonder Woman is a title. So are Sorcerer Supreme, Ruler of Latveria, The Fastest Man Alive, and The Spirit Of Vengance.

If any of these are made into films, I expect to see Stephen Strange, Victor Von Doom, Barry Allen/ Wally West, and Dan Ketch.

And Diana.

Other people may have held those titles for an issue, or for the purposes of a storyline. But, these are the people I (and so many other geeks) will always associate with these titles.

Re Nods To Diversity

For me, a large part is whether there was any effort put forth in creating a character or whether somebody just said ‘We need somebody who isn’t white. Gimme an ethnic character without depth, heart or any redeeming values.’

Nubia, IMHO is very much the second.

Remember Super Friends? Remember Samurai? Black Vulcan? Apache Chief?

OTOH

I’ve got the Avengers issue in which Monica Rambeau reveals to her parents that she’s Captain Marvel. Origin? Weird industrial accident involving strange new technology ( I forget if it involved the Roxxon Corporation- whose policies involved drilling for oil in other dimensions, and a CEO who became possessed by the Serpent Crown). Retcon or shoehorned in where it didn’t fit? Nope. Weird industrial accidents which grant super powers seem to be fairly common on Earth Marvel. Developed character? IIRC, it’s mentioned that her family’s from Louisanna and that her father is a retired firefighter in the same issue.

100

No, but you’re putting her forth as evidence that casting Gina Torres or another black actress as Wonder Woman wouldn’t make a bit of difference.

Okay, you’re just wrong. These things added to his recognition factor, but I’ve said it before, he’s been a well-developed character as far back as the early 80’s.

The Green Lantern is a fantastically bad example for you in this case, because there are 3600+ of them. To make it more analogous, it would be as if they started the Green Lantern movie with Kyle’s origin, effectively - there’s no corps, just one tiny blue guy handing a random person a ring of power. THEN they’d be stomping on Hal, and Alan, and the rest of the history of the character, the same way your proposal stomps on Diana.

And yes, I’d complain just as much if they did that.

“Headline” does not mean “is the sole person starring in.” Using your definition, Wonder Woman didn’t “headline”: her own book - you know, the one called “Wonder Woman” - for years, because of Huntress back-up features.

Strawman. I am interested in comics history. What I’m not interested in is defunct culutural phenomena (like blaxploitation) that precede my birth.

Do you read comics? At all? You must be joking about the three decades thing. A decade later, John getting stories of his own as a full-time GL. Two decades later, he’s “headlining” … oh, wait, sorry, there were a few other people in the book… “Starring” in Green Lantern Mosaic.

I challenge you to defend the assertion that Mr. Terrific was made black for reasons of “diversity”.