Work hard or hardly work?

Great Debates
61

Same back at you. Thanks for the clarification.

It seems to me that perhaps some of the problem may be due to pressures people feel to achieve a certain income level, in order to afford a certain lifestyle. Add to this that there may be a disjunct, at least for many people, between the jobs they would most enjoy, as opposed to the jobs they are qualified to perform that would pay the most.

So I suspect you have large numbers of people going into careers that they will never be satisfied with. And once you get used to a certain standard of living, it is hard to do a 180.

Do not think for a moment that I am bemoaning my situation, but I will use myself as an example.

I am a lawyer. I work 40 hours a week, make just under $100G, never bring work home, and never work weekends. I have been at this job for 15 years. If I stick 15 more, I can retire at age 56 with a really good package, 2 years after my youngest gets out of college.

While I get absolutely no satisfaction from my job beyond my paycheck, it supports a decent lifestyle and does not detract from my personal life.

What are my alternatives? Yes, I could get many law jobs that pay more, but I really don’t desire to do any particular kind of law, and most other law jobs would require far more time - including time from my family. Nor do I imagine myself getting tremendous fulfillment from any other “business”, teaching, or consulting jobs.

What would I like to do? Well, I don’t imagine too terribly many folks offering me 6 figures to read books or drink beer. And my golf game isn’t quite good enough to join the PGA. I like landscape design and maintainance. Let’s see - if I would learn to speak Spanish, I might be able to make a 3d of what I make now. Tough choice!

Now what I wish I had done was more fully consider my options when in school. If I had not felt an obligation to follow a “traditional” job path, I might have majored in ornamental horticulture. Or gotten a job with the forest service. Or as a teaching pro at a golf course. Of course few, if any, of those jobs pay anywhere near what I make. But if I had never gotten used to making this amount of money in the first place, perhaps I would not have missed it. And the enjoyment I would get out of my job would go a long way towards making up for any lack of earning potential and accompanying consumenr goods.

But when I was in school, I was not strong, creative, and foresightful enough to include such options in my vision.

As a parent, I see as one of my main goals trying to help my kids identify things that give them joy, and help them figure a way to scratch out a decent living while pursuing them. I hope they don’t restrict their vision of the future to only jobs that pay a certain amount.

62

One point I have not heard made in this conversation is the lack of space in the economy for anything but ‘jobs’.

The American workforce, at least, is designed around roles for people that will enable others (and occasionally, themselves) to make money in a fairly efficient fashion. It is not designed around building life skills, making people feel fulfilled, or properly using a person’s full potential. Certainly, it is possible to do these things, but I would call them the exception rather than the rule.

When I graduated college with my liberal arts degree, I was faced with the prospect of not making much money for the rest of my life. I had all the education to do the things I truly wanted to accomplish (novelist, musician) but as for big-bucks, nada.

My chosen profession to pay the bills was editor, and the the reason I chose it was that I have few other qualifications. While it is distantly close to novelist, it is still unfulfilling, gains me few skills, and certainly doesn’t use all my talent.

I have become convinced that the problem is not me as much as that the world doesn’t have room. While, with a lot of hard work, I may eventually publish the first book I wrote, or cut that album, success is not guaranteed, and if I fail I will be forced to conclude that the market for them was just too saturated, or just didn’t exist. :wink:

The world has over six billion people. America has nearly three hundred million. We can’t all do what we want to do. However, this is no reason to stop trying. I do, though, understand when people settle for less.

I do resent rather strongly any implication that the ideal form of humanity is an ambitious overachiever, any more than I like the idea of humanity as a group of slackers. Happiness for me is moderation. I’ve never understood Darwinian careers any more than slug-like office workers.

Sometimes, I think I should have gone for the Computer Science degree and spent years wracking my brains programming - then I’d make as much as my best friend. But I’m fairly sure wouldn’t be half the creative bloke I am now.

Apologies for length, I felt thoughtful.

63

Dinsdale -

Though we seem to be straying far from the debate, I believe I am in a similar situation and I also do not bemoan my choices in the least.

I’m an IT technical consultant. That means I actually do the things I recommend - I take a certain amount of pride in that. I have been taking in a way way above average salary for people in my business. I suppose if I put the necessary effort into building a consulting career with one of the big five consulting firms I’d be well on my way to partnership and even more obscene amounts of money. I weighed the pros and cons and decided that the time away from my wife and kids that this kind of carreer path would require was not worth it. So I chose the next best thing and struck out on my own. I work the 40 hour week and do not bring work home with me either. I am compensated very well for my skills and we benefit from being able to relocate to a different part of the country when we decide it’s time for a change.

But in my heart of hearts I wanted to be - a Lumberjack! Swinging through the trees!.. Okay, not really. I wanted to be an architect or a carpenter in the league with Norm Abrams. My dad, an engineer, discouraged me from the former, and rightly so. I was terrible at drafting and design. No real talent what so ever. As for the latter, the relatively low income and relative poor prospects at real success in the carpentry business kind of put me off. But I was good at math and computers intrigued me and I went into the computer field. I can’t say that I have regreted the decision. I do have a nack for things computer related and I get a real kick out of it. But in my heart of hearts, my fantasy job would be a fine furniture and cabinet maker. I love to work with wood and I seem to have a talent for it more than the average lay person. Who knows what would have happened if I pursued that path instead of the techie trail. It certainly would have been the road less travelled.

But I don’t really have any regrets because I have a goal in my life. If I work hard at my current career and continue to succeed as well as I have to date then in a few years, probably ten, I will toss the laptop and replace it with some woodworking tools. Set up a small shop and open up a new chapter in my life. It’s a dream. No better, no worse than any other. But - and this ought to bring us back on topic - I firmly believe that I cannot succeed in making that dream come true unless I maximize my potential by giving my all (within personally established bounds) in my current carreer.

I guess maybe we are not so different after all. :slight_smile:

64

How about employers who tell you in the interview that this is what you will be doing, and when you get there, you have to do a lot more than that??? Is that stealing on the employer’s part?? Shame on you employers!!!

I think that the OP was, you do just enough - to meet quotas, to make sure you don’t get fired, etc. - it can’t be called stealing. You just aren’t going the extra mile, as you might if you owned the company.

65

Spoken like a true corporate hack. My job is to do my job competently, nothing more. If that means “skating by” in your book, tough beans. Management has no right to expect me to do it “better than anyone else”, unless they want to pay handsomely for it. We agreed on the work/pay equation when I was hired; beyond that, I don’t owe anything to my employer; he owes me nothing. Don’t get all sappy aboout character and personal responsibility; in my experience, those employers that do, often turn around and justify downsizings and massive layoffs by saying “it is just business”. That sword cuts both ways; I run my job like a business, and I am loyal to my “stockholders”, just as you are to yours. It’s nothing personal, I just want as much of your money as possible, and you want as much of my productivity as possible. Let’s stick to what we agreed on, without all the sanctimonious BS. I’m not falling for it.

66

I have some questions for some of the people who “just skate by” at work. What kind of education do you have? Did you get decent grades and go to a good college or did were they just average?

The reason I ask is that while grades does not always correlate to career success, it can indicate a general attitude towards work.

In any case, I don’t have a problem with people who are lazy at work. Come promotion time it just makes me look better by comparison.

67

msmith537:

High school. One year of college (state). A ton of acting classes and workshops. I was a straight A student until mid high school when I started having some luck with the ladies and drinking beer. Also got a car. My average dropped down to about a B-. In college I went to my theatre and music classes religiously, but after a night of partying, general-ed math and history were not what I wanted to be thinking about at 8:30 in the morning. I dropped out becuase the General Education requirements bored me to tears. Luckily, I got a job as an actor at an amusement park (Kings Island in Cincinnati) right as I dropped out. I was able to get my own nice place, with rent being one half of what I made in one week. I got a taste for the freedom and extra cash. So I moved to New York, and realized about a half an hour later that I was gonna need another job fast.

In New York, if you want to have time to audition and such, you either wait on tables or temp (alot of exceptions, granted, but these are the most common). After having temped for 6 years now, I’ve adopted the philosophy stated in the OP. Incidently, I waited on tables too, but that conversation belongs in the Pit!

Now you have some history!

DaLovin’ Dj

68

Your point makes a lot of sense for me, anyway. In high school and college my idea of “success” was a 3.0. Nothing more, nothing less. I did what it took to get that gpa, though I was hardly a straight “B” student.

Any more than that, and my studies would usurp time from other aspects of my life. (I played high school and college football which took up a lot of time.)

Also, I feel that all people have a leisure requirement. Some people need more leisure than others in order to maintain a sustainable lifestyle.
Unfortunately, I was cursed (blessed?) with a high leisure requirement.

Graduated in PR last year from Ohio State, and now I have an entry level job in event marketing in Louisville. I really don’t do jack shit because there is no room to go up.

Basically this job is a resume booster… I’m planning on cashing out in a year and finding something more lucrative.

Maybe I’ll go to grad school in a couple years and invest myself in something I could truly love to do. Who knows?

msmith: I don’t know if this is the point you are trying to make, but people who do not like to work are not necessarily lazy.

69

I graduated from high school at the top of my class (admittedly a small class) and passed up a full-tuition in-state scholarship to accept a full-tuition scholarship at a prestigious private school on the East Coast. As for grades, I’ve made the Dean’s List every semester since I came to college.

I believe in hard work, I just don’t think it’s necessary, or even healthy, to force yourself to “go the extra mile” in cases where this will provide you with no advantage over just doing your job.

I do not need to be the world’s greatest envelope-stuffer. It’s not an accomplishment that would bring me any pride. It would not impress my supervisor, and even if it did that would not translate into higher wages or more benefits for me. According to my supervisor, I’m already the best temp the office has ever had. I could put in more effort and do an even better job, but that would bring me well past the point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in.

70

I don’t think we are discussing laziness here as much as motivation. Even the laziest person on the planet will get up off the couch to fetch his own beer if he is motivated enough by his desire to have one and no one else is there to get it for him.

Either one is motivated (by that I mean self motivated) to get ahead in one’s job/career or one is satisfied with where he/she is. Also there is the the motivation of having the satisfaction of a job well done. But that is usually associated with actually liking what you do.

71

Straight A’s, high school. A-/B+ GPA at a very prestigious university, while I might mention, working a work study job and waiting tables to put myself through.

Define “lazy”, please.

Here is a tale of two salaried employees at the same company in the same position at the same salary:

Person A shows up on time, completes assignments on time, turns in high quality work, maintains good relationships with coworkers. He leaves on time and uses his lunch hour to take a long walk - always working a 40 hour week. Maybe 30 minutes per day he checks email or surfs a message board, but it never interferes with completing his work. On occasion the boss specifically asks him to stay late to help meet a deadline, and he does so without complaint. He likes his job okay, makes enough money to pay his bills, and doesn’t really think about getting promoted. Free time is very important to Person A, because in his off-hours he works on various educational and creative tasks, totalling probably 15-20 week at home.

Person B shows up 1/2 hour early and stays 2-3 hours late each day. He scarfs sandwiches at his desk, taking a lunch break only occasionally. He volunteers for every new project, and constantly comes up with new methods and products. He brings work home with him each night, reads work-related publications on his commute, and is always ready to work a weekend or an evening. His workweeks average 55-60 hours, sometimes as high as 70. He has little free time, but he takes an occasional seminar or training class to improve his skills.

  1. Do you think Person A is lazy? Is he stealing from his employer? Does he lack character because all his efforts aren’t focused on his job? Is Person A “just skating by” at work?

  2. Do you think Person B is somehow a better person with more character?
    I think Person A is fulfilling his contract with his employers and has absolutely no duty to perform at a “higher” level or work more hours.

I think Person B has many admirable qualities - he deserves to be rewarded for his hard work with raises and promotions - yes, bigger raises and promotions than Person A, of course. He hopefully enjoys the hell out of his career, and has made the decision to donate 15-20 extra hours per week to his employer in the hopes that it will pay off down the road. These hours are not (or should not be) part of his employer’s expectations of him - if they produce excellent results, they should be recognized and rewarded as work above and beyond.

The Corporate Lie is that everyone needs to be Person B all the time. Truthfully, as someone who has been Person B, I can tell you that he’s kind of a workaholic. What kind of results are all these extra hours really producing? What guarantees are there that his work will be rewarded with money and responsibility and not just more work? Some of you are telling us that being Person A is akin to stealing from our employers and implies a lack of basic character - I resent this and I strongly disagree.

72

I got great grades, and went to a great college.

Here’s another tale - somewhat exaggerated for effect, but not entirely unlike situations I’ve been in.

On Monday morning, my boss calls me in and gives me Task X. It is due on Friday at 5. Given past experience, I know that Task X will be followed by Task Y, and the expectations of for task Y will be largely based on how I did for X.

Late Tuesday afternoon, I complete X. So now do I -
a) Turn in X now.
b) Spend Wednesday morning doing some special, but technically unnecessary work, and turn in X+ at Wednesday noon.
c) Spend the next three days doing technically unnecessary but really flashy work, and turn in X+++++++ on Friday.
d) Spend Wednesday morning doing some special but unnecessary work, spend the rest of Wednesday and Thursday being incredibly unproductive, and turn in X+ on Thursday afternoon (which is still earlier than required).
e) Other.

Part 2 of the tale:
Say I consistently choose d. I’m slacking, but I’m more than getting stuff done. I have 2 co-workers. Co-worker A works at the same rate I do, loves her job, and is looking to move up . She does option a, b, or c depending on how the task shows off her skills and talents. Co-worker B works very hard all the time, never slacks, but it always takes him until Friday to finish the task. Obviously, if/when layoffs come, and two of us get laid off, Co-worker B and I are out the door. But, if it comes to a choice between B and I, are those of you who are management consultants saying that B keeps his job because he tries harder even though I am more productive?

73

(even if he’d correctly say “between amarinth and me” instead of messing that phrase up)

74

Define “skate by” please.

75

And now we come to the semantics part of the thread . . .

76

I was third in my class in high school and graduated an Ivy League college with honors. With a double major plus a 48 credit core curriculum. I spent more hours in the library than I ever plan to at my current day job.

My attitude towards work is quite positive. I am very serious about fencing, for which I train very hard. I have taken on a large administrative burden for my school, which often conflicts with fencing itself.

I still write articles, do unpaid freelance translation, and am working on a major research project.

All of which requires considerable time out of work, where I go to be remunerated for things I find boring, contemptible, or downright detestable.

If I were looking for a corporate career, I would have neither the time nor the inclination to do the things that are really important to me. Just because these are things that the Market, which has been deemed our First Principle of social organization does not find valuable does not in fact render them wholly worthless.

77

Main Entry: 1la·zy
Pronunciation: 'lA-zE
Function: adjective
1 a : disinclined to activity or exertion : not energetic or vigorous b : encouraging inactivity or indolence <a lazy summer day>
2 : moving slowly : SLUGGISH

Person ‘C’ is lazy. He consistantly shows up 20 minutes late, takes 2 hour lunches and leaves as soon as his boss is out of the building. He lets assignments go until someone gets on his case about them. Quite often, if he can’t figure out a problem, he’ll just throw his hands in the air and just leave it instead of getting help. He keeps his job because he does just enough not to get fired, but if no one is watching him, he doesn’t do anything but surf the net and send emails.

Actual example: Went to Macy’s to return an item. The clerk seemed put out because I interupted her busy schedule of staring off into space and watching ‘Moesha’ on the store’s close circut video system. After trying unsuccessfull to credit my card for the purchase, she gave me an ‘I can’t get it to work’ attitude until I demanded to see the manager. The manager seemed pretty pissed and I hope she fired the clerk.

Person A is basically a ‘B’ player at their company. They are doing their job but not really standing out. That’s fine. I don’t think anyone would have an issue with that.

I think the question is “is it justified to do a half-assed unprofessional job at work just because you don’t like working there and you can get away with it?” I think the answer is “no”.

Companies love all their employees to be like person B. In reality, every employee cannot be an ‘A’ player. It’s not even that good to have everyone be a superstar. You need followers as much as you need leaders. What no company needs however are people who don’t pull their weight. Not only does everyone else have to work harder to pick up the slack, those people are a financial drain on the company.

No, in the end its the bottom line that matters. If you can put in %50 and be more productive than someone who must always run at %100, I’d keep the %50 guy. Why?

-What happens if you constantly run an engine at %100? It burns out a lot quicker
-Someone who gets the job done ar %50 can crank it up if there is a deadline or something.
-The business world doesn’t give 'A’s for effort.

Actually, being disinclined to work is the definition of lazy. Although a person can be lazy about work but really motivated at activities that they enjoy.

78

My first thread with over 1000 vies. Yay! I didn’t even have to use the refresh button. Am I still a newbie?

79

Disinclined to work in general or in the specific work he/she is doing at the time the estimation is made?

I am quite vigorous and work very hard, yet I will surf the net at work quite as much as I possibly can.

So am I lazy?

80

Here’s a news flash - Dinsdale is lazy!

Wasn’t feeling too well yesterday so I couldn’t make it in to work. Those 18 holes were just the cure for whatever ailed me.

Top 10% in high school with no effort. Dean’s List at a big 10 U - I also test well so I knew what I would need to do to get into law school. Aced the LSAT (ability to perform when it counts?) Remember, my program had me ending up as a lawyer (admittedly, a mistake in hindsight). So all I had to do was earn my ticket into the game. In law school, I was unable to identify the correlation as to work required for an A. Those finals unexpectedly through me for a loop. When I realized how little effort was required to get the C - it was all “hook and go” from there on out. Again, my ability to test ensured that I would pass the bar. Voila - ticket to practice law obtained at the lowest possible cost. In my book, I win!

Oh yeah, over the last 6 weeks our office was under a crunch - several people had let their caseloads get away from them and were unable to dig themselves out of their self-imposed holes. Mgmt set a goal of people striving to retire 10-12 cases over that period. I did 21. And took 1 1/2 weeks vacation. No one else (maybe 50 attys) exceeded 12.

No, I am not superman, and I don’t mean to sound as tho I’m bragging. It is just that, for whatever reason, my job comes incredibly easy for me - even tho it bores me to tears. And (sorry if you don’t believe me, but) my office offers NO external motivation to consistently do twice the work of anyone else. In fact, all that would earn me is the disfavor of my colleagues.

Yeah, I’m a lazy slacker. I think it’s time for my nap. Anyone got any plans for the weekend?

Oh yeah - you should see my backyard. I wonder how many hours I put in weeding last weekend? And you should have seen me bust my ass at fencing practice last night. Give me something I give a shit about, or something where I have SOME control over the results my efforts will bring, and I’ll amaze you with my industry. But my work is not such a place.