As some (if not many of you) know, as well as being an atrocious and lazy speller, I’m a person in the process of stretching my ears. That’s right, I’ve got big holes in them, and I’m making them bigger. I’m also planning on driving other assorted bits of metal through my body, and getting several tattoos. So the question occurred to me… Should an employer be allowed to discriminate against me for these actions of independence. Now before you all jump in and shout yes!, hold off a second.
We are dealing with two issues. One, is is it legal. Two, is should it be legal.
Now for some background. I would argue that an employer has a right to ask you to remove piercings, cover up tattoos, and conform to certain societal norms. I also believe that requiring women to wear makeup and high heels is wrong (from the harrahs case). Now we get into the tricky part. If someone is born without a left ear or with a grossly misshapen right ear, no one (except Libertarian) is going to argue that you shouldn’t be able to hire them. Also, I don’t believe anyone thinks that you can fire someone, if while they are working for you, they develop a bad case of acne.
So we agree that there are certain cases where you can not fire someone.
Now let’s move into trickier territory. I was born into the Fultigazi culture where it is a practice to tattoo 666 into every child s forehead. I apply for a job. Is it really right for someone to discriminate against me based on something I have no control over? I would say no. but then, if someone has tattoos on their face, how do you know they chose to get them? they could very well be something from childhood. Is it right for you to make assumptions about people’s past based on a quick viewing of them?
Then ear plugs. Frankly, if I take my plugs out, my ears don’t look that attractive. Yet, if I leave them in it looks like I have earings. Is it right for a job to discriminate based on how my ears look? they hire many people with unattractive faces, lips, hair lips, yet can they discriminate against me based on the fact that I can stick my thumb through my ear?
Doesn’t sound right to me.
TIME ELAPSED SINCE I QUIT SMOKING:
Six months, 23 hours, 51 minutes and 33 seconds.
7359 cigarettes not smoked, saving $919.97.
Extra time with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 4 days, 13 hours, 15 minutes.
I agree that an employer has a right to have a dress code in the name of a professional appearance, but I can’t see requiring a woman to wear high heels, especially if it’s a job where you’re on your feet for substantial part of the day. I have back problems, and if I had to wear heels on the job I would probably have to have the shoes custom made- I have one leg shorter than the other, which is a major contributing factor to my back pain, and it is nearly impossible to find shoes that are the same style but of different heel heights, believe me, I’ve looked. And if my employer did require me to wear heels, would they be willing to spring for the special/extra pair of shoes? If not, I think we’d have a discrimination case.
Well, legally, they have some rights. They may even decide not to hire based on attractiveness, but not because of race, or being PD. But the legal front is shifting, here.
However, I hate to repeat myself, or start sounding like Libertarian, but as long as it is legal, when you go to work with someone you are effectively signing a contract. Both of you may ask for anything legal, no matter how ‘unreasonable’ or “immoral”. True, it does seem like the employer has the upper hand, but remember he needs employees as much as employees need wages. Thus, if the employer says “no piercings”, then, if that is what you both agree to in your 'contract", then - no piercings. Seems silly to me, but… Note that OldS lives here in the Bay area, where we have NEGATIVE unemployment, so he might have the ‘whip hand’ (so to speak ) in the hiring process.
Now, if your religion required some mark or something, like a caste mark, you would have a stronger case, and as long as your accomadation was “reasonable”, you would have a legal right to it. Why something done for “personal choice” is not PK, but something done for “religous choice” is, I dunno.
I’d have to agree with the OP, and say “Naah, doesn’t sound right to me either.” If you’re conforming to the <insert annoying air-quote thingies with your fingers here> “business world norm” and removing the ear plugs, then an employer shouldn’t be allowed to not hire you for having “socially unacceptable” <again with the air-quotes> ears.
I’m a bit sore on this subject–I recently was sent off-site by my company to a huge investment firm to do some QA work for them, and had to take my nose ring out. I wasn’t pissed till number one, I realized I couldn’t get the ring back in, and number two, they noticed the hole and said “Oh, you didn’t have to take that out…” But, had I interviewed with it in, I probably wouldn’t have been offered the position.
This doesn’t really contribute anything meaningful to this thread, I just wanted to rail against corporate America. Feel free to resume normal operations.
Businesses have the right to discriminate. I been discriminated against for having long hair throughout my working career. It has driven me to work harder and learn more, just to prove myself. After college graduation and working for several computer based technical companies I am ready to start my own business. I believe my ambition and determination are direct results from the discrimination I have received in the past. I would thank them all if I could.
anyone who knows will guess how i’ll answer this one…
i don’t believe businesses should have the right to discriminate on the basis of anything other than raw ability to do the job. gee what a startling concept.
the employer’s intrest is to get a certain task performed. the emplyee’s intrest is to get a paycheck. the color of the hair, number of tattoos or peircings, style of clothing etc would rarely make a difference.
some may say that customers could be lost for “unusual appearance”. they said that about hiring minorities too. when every business has their share of smart useful non-conformists, customers will grow up and get used to it. they will see the human being that resides inside. that is the real point. each of us is a human being, should some of us have extra rights to jobs for conformity??
I believe that business’s do have a right to discriminate, within reason. But as Cecil said, a lot of lawyers have billed a lot of hours arguing about what ‘within reason’ means. (Having to dress up in skimpy outfits to be gawked at would not be within reason)
My employer has the right to dictate certain aspects of my appearence. They can require that I conduct myself in a business-like manner, which to them means, along with job performance, a certain mode of dress, a narrow range of hair styles, no visible tattoos and several restictions on jewelry.
I find myself being increasingly conservative, dress-wise, as I get older. I used to wear long hair, gawdy earrings, and leather pants to High School. If I called some sort of workman to my home today, and he or she showed up looking the way I used to look, I would not call them back in the future. And that may well be shallow of me, but darn it, thats the way I feel. I cannot be certain, but I think a lot of people feel that way.
When you’re on your own time, you can look however you want. When you’re being paid by someone, they have a say in how you are to look. If I owned a business, I would definately have a dress code that would prohibit visible tattoos and most forms of jewelry. I can see where someone would disagree with that policy. And they are free to seek other employers or start a business of their own.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by dixiechiq *
**anyone who knows will guess how i’ll answer this one…
**
I don’t have a problem with employers setting up a dress code for their employees to follow. And if you’ve got a bone sticking through your nose don’t be surprised if you have a hard time finding a job at Wal-Mart or getting that accounting position at Merril Lynch.
You do have the same rights. If you choose to look freaky don’t complain when you suffer the consequences. The same goes if you choose not to dress appropriatly to the situation. If you show up to a job interview for Merril Lynch in jeans and a t-shirt do not expect to be hired. And please don’t say that how you look doesn’t matter. If it didn’t matter then why would you purposely go for an unusual appearance?
I was unaware that people were tatooing you against your will, oldscratch. :rolleyes:
The article clearly mentions tattoos in it as well as men with earings. I was just bringing up a relevant example.
Whether we like it or not, a business can hire you (or not) based upon how you choose to present yourself. As a male with long hair, I have come across this fairly often.
I don’t understand why it was okay for women to get the restaurant job I was denied once in high school, for example, because they allowed women to tie their hair back. I was prepared to do the same. But ultimately, I didn’t have a leg to stand on and had to be employed elsewhere or cut my hair.
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, one day, 13 hours, 37 minutes and 1 second.
7382 cigarettes not smoked, saving $922.84.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 4 days, 15 hours, 10 minutes.
Please elaborate. I have never heard of this wacky crap. Are you for real on this? Do you have 666 tatooed on your forhead? And if you do are this is real. Please explain why they do that?
I don’t know the specifics, but a man was hired at Dominoes and his religion denied him from cutting his beard. Dominoes has a policy against managers having beards, but not against delivery people or food preparers. He worked his way up to management and was denied the position unless he cut his beard. He won on the basis of religious discrimination.
Ugly or weird are not protected classes. Out of the norm is not a protected class. The additional question is, did you change your religious beliefs or physical practices after you were hired? In that case, I believe the employer has a stronger case than if you looked the same when you were hired. It may keep you out of certain jobs though.
In the late 60’s my dad had a student engineer working for him for a while. (Part of the General Motors Institute program had each student spend twelve weeks at class and twelve weeks at different divisions doing “hands on” work.) The student had over-the-shoulder hair that he kept clean and combed neatly. At the end of the twelve weeks, my dad filled out his review and gave him an “Oustanding” in every category. The student asked my dad if he’d consider hiring him when he graduated GMI. My dad said “Sure, but you’ll have to get your hair cut.” The student was, beyond being upset, of course, very puzzled and asked dad why his hair was an issue.
My dad responded, “I don’t care if you wear your hair down to your butt and my review shows that. However, this department is charged with developing new manufacturing processes for GM, for which GM invests a LOT of money. Once we have completed a process, we then have to be able to ‘sell’ the process to the divisions, because they are independent; no one orders them to accept our handiwork. We always send the design engineer out on the sales call. The moment you walked through the door of any old-line manager, he’d never hear a word you said. All your efforts (and all our time and money) would simply be wasted. It is totally unfair, but I have a responsibility to GM to not spend money on projects that I cannot persuade the divisions to use. I’d be delighted to have you work for me, but I can’t hide you in a back corner until long hair becomes acceptable or you decide to get a haircut, so the haircut comes first.”
At lot of you seem to be missing the point. I’m referring to physical appearence that can not be changed. Can an employer discriminate against you based on a hair-lip? Because he doens’t like your cauliflower ears? Your lizard lips?
And Satan. The article doesn’t mention tattos anywhere in it? Maybe try reading a little closer.
And yes Wildest bill i do have that tattoed on my forehead, I also have a forked tounge (done when I was six) and large metal horns surgically implanted in my skull. The Fultigaz are a bengali tribe that has faced persecution in India, as such a large number of them live in the SF bay area.
That said, the point stands: Your tattoos are not “something you have no control over” any more than the pierrcings which are referenced in the article!
However, you MIGHT have a case if your appearance is mandated due to a real religion (please quit fucking with Bill… He’ll believe you and he’ll start a thread about the evil ways of the Fultigaz tribes…), you MIGHT have a case.
The ACLU would have to comment on the particulars, however, if you were able to prove in a court that you were fired or not hired specifically because of a tenant of your religion, and that the religion is recognized as such by the appropriate government types, you might have a case.
Judging from the way you worded the OP, however, I don’t see your religious views as a motivating factor for the way you modify and adorn your physical features.
I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR:
Six months, one day, 18 hours, 42 minutes and 18 seconds.
7391 cigarettes not smoked, saving $923.90.
Extra life with Drain Bead: 3 weeks, 4 days, 15 hours, 55 minutes.
Why don’t you believe me about my heritage!!! No one ever believes me! Is this my fate for the rest of my life? Bill… don’t listen to Satan (remember he is the prince of lies).
OK Satan. Here is what I was trying to get at. Is it acceptable for an employer to discriminate against you on something you have no control over. Can they not hire you because they don’t like your lips? Another case. If you grew up in an area of the world where it is socially normal to put holes in your ears, and move to the US, can they discriminae against you? you’re more than willing to take the piercings out, but you still have ears that look like rabid acid weasels on crack. If they don’t hire you aren’t they discriminating based on cultural differences? Also, can you be discriminated against on pure phsyical appearence?
) in the hiring process.