All of this is true, but I’m not sure it’s really relevant to what I was saying, which is that the stated progression is for 10-man Naxx to lead to 10-man Ulduar and that you can perform just fine in Ulduar (at least to some point) in Naxx10 gear (and just fine in Naxx in heroic/crafted gear).
I didn’t address “BTPNTC” at all - although personally I think it’s ridiculous to need two priests for Raz or a Druid for Maexxna. Also note that neither of these is strictly required in 10-man (no priests required for Raz - not as sure about the Druid because I’m pretty sure we’ve always had one…). But yeah, definitely not drinking the Blizz kool-aid on that one and I hope they reconsider it at some point.
I’m not sure what you’re exactly saying here. Do you disagree that you can raid Ulduar with Naxx gear? Because that’s all I claimed, and I’m pretty sure it’s not “full of shit”. Maybe it was, but the fights have all been modified (read: nerfed) since their release. Maybe it’s different on 25-man, I have no idea. But then again I didn’t make any claims about 25-man…
Absolutely - I consider Algalon to be another hard mode since even unlocking it requires completing the other hard modes. It’s a completely optional “additional” thing for only the hardcore raiders. As a casual raider I’m completely fine with that. If all of Ulduar were that way then maybe I wouldn’t be.
Yeah, I see your point here. And truly “casual” players are certainly different from PvP or PvE players. PvP in particular has such different priorities for gear and abilities that it might as well be a different game. And of course many players do more than just one of these “sub-games”.
I never claimed that 3k DPS was impressive. I merely claimed that it is sufficient to progress in Ulduar 10-man and that it can be achieved in Naxx10 gear. Which it demonstrably is as the average DPS of the raid that cleared up to Mimiron this weekend was around that. I have no doubt the requirement is much higher in 25-man.
I do somewhat call BS on pushing 10k+ unless it’s on very specific fights with buffs up (Hodir maybe?) - the highest sustained DPS I’ve heard of is perhaps 7k. But I could be wrong, maybe there really are sustained 9k DPSers out there…
ETA: Again, mimicking winterhawk I’d love to see the armory link for someone that puts out 6-10k DPS.
ashman, congratulations on having the hugest e-peen in the game! I guess you could say that, if casuals are happy with being mediocre in game, hardcore raiders are happy being mediocre IRL.
Why do you care? Go do your OMGMyEpeenIsSOOOOBIG!!! stuff and leave us people who have some kind of life outside of WoW to do what we want to do. Working essentially a whole different 5- or 6-hour-a-day job after I get home from work for what are essentially pretend objects doesn’t really appeal to me.
You do realize you don’t actually own any of that awesome gear? It’s not real! And you spend hours and hours and hours and hours WORKING to get them and they don’t really exist. If that’s fun for you, fine. It’s not for me and it’s not for a lot of people. Just do your little raid thingies and let us play the way we want to. Insults are unnecessary.
To be fair to Blizzard here I would like to point out that the encounters in question are what one might call legacy encounters, ie they were originally designed for 40 man raids back in Vanilla and for some reason the developers didn’t want to completely change the fight mechanics when they ported Naxx to level 80.
Are there any encounters original to Wrath of the Lich King that require a specific class to be doable ?
Y’all have it all over the WoW “Community Sites” as far as in-depth information goes!
I just wish I knew what in the Frigg y’all are sayin’!
I figure maybe as I level up higher, I’ll grab on to more of the “lingo”, but right now, I’m content to just watch in awe.
AWWWWW?!:rolleyes:
I just came out of DM again, and Wolkie is now able to take on 3 Defias Diggers, Henchmen, and that big blue thing that follows that mystic around. I just back him up a tad, draw them in and then hit them with the demoralising shout, Thunder clap, Blood rage and Heroic strike.
Of course we still haven’t gone deep enough to find Van Cleef, but for right now, the coppers are keeping my flights paid!
I don’t think that ability is what matters. It requires time, not skill.
You can’t get a full set of Naxx gear unless you have many, many hours to dedicate, a good Internet connection, and a set of equally dedicated people to do it with you.
I am stuck with satellite Internet (meaning lag > 1200ms) at home, and can rarely plan for a 3-6 hour session after hours at work.
Your post is condescending and thoroughly insulting. It’s also wrong.
“Casuals” are people who don’t have 20 hours per week to dedicate to WoW. It does require “skill, progress, and ability” do go from level 1 to 80, to do heroic dungeons, to play your class well, to win at PvP consistently, and to do it all with limited time and lower-level gear.
The game you play requires memorizing fight sequences and repeating the formula over and over and over and over. The game a PvPer plays is matching skill against other human beings. The game a quester plays is working a fresh set of challenges with each level, each class, each zone.
Casual players are no less skilled, and are not (necessarily) mediocre.
Well, this is part of the issue a lot people have with WOTLK: it’s a lazy expansion. Literally, they recycled content. I can understand the urge to do: dammit, I designed this fight and only a handful of people have seen it. So, here it is again, and this time they’ll all see it. But that doesn’t make the expansion wonderful.
Many of us resented having to raid Naxx, again.
Some of the “new” content isn’t really that new. Blizzard works off of recasting the same mechanics with different combinations. I suppose there isn’t a more efficient way to do it lest they have to write entirely new code for each new fight they craft instead of just copying some of the old.
But that leads to gimmick fights, which aren’t exactly the favorite of people. I don’t mean fights that require strategy; that’s a good thing. I mean the “but for” fights. Like, but for this one particular gimmick, the fight isn’t do-able. Notably is Razuvious.
Also, Xt-Decon. But for having the right healer composition, the fight won’t work. For instance, you all but have to have a priest or a druid. You can’t get away with using a Shaman and a Paladin. But why? We 2 man heal it on hard mode in 10 man, with 2 holy priests. Because it doesn’t work with a Paladin on the tank and one raid healer; the incoming damage is just too fast to be outhealed by one raid healer. But that’s not directly on point.
Mimiron comes to mind. Phase 1 is decidedly designed for a DK to tank. Warriors, druids, and paladins will all be greatly disadvantaged as a tank on that fight. I’m sure the fight can be done otherwise, but I haven’t found a composition which makes success as sure a thing as having a Dk tank it, having 1 holy priest in the group and 1 paladin so that CDs can be rotated. I’ve seen shield wall and last stand both punched through on that fight. So, that kind of excludes protection warriors from being a viable tank, in my mind. Druids have only a high pool of health, which isn’t sufficient in that case. Paladins have better success, but it’s far from as certain. With a Dk tank, we have, so far, a perfect record of making it beyond Phase 1.
Some of you asking for my guild and server may have missed earlier when I said that I’m on Gul’dan. It’s not difficult to go to wow-heroes.com and look up the top characters on the server.
Of course, it would be easy to drop a screen shot from a gimmick fight, like Loetheb, where everyone’s damage and healing is necessarily inflated because of the Fungal Creep. But I don’t factor those in.
Anyway, I’m in Scurvy Dogs, and our top dpsers are quite regularly over the 6k dps mark.
I wasn’t suggesting that anyone here said that 3k dps is impressive. However, you must realize that your own contribution might not be substantial. You may be happy with 3k dps, and if your guild is fine with it, then it’s all gravy. But if you’re pulling half the dps of everyone else, then you are indeed being carried.
Or, consider that if everyone else decided to only dps as much as you can, the question becomes is your level of contribution if distributed raid-wide sufficient to down the fight. If not, then you’re being carried. That might work in a lot of places. But in others it won’t.
The issue isn’t my particular e-peen since I didn’t claim that I’m all that and a bucket of fried chicken. I, as I noted at the outset, spoke from what the hardcore raiders perceive. If you’re incapable of looking beyond your own view to appreciate the view of another, then no one but other likeminded people can help you. So, instead of getting butt hurt over it, consider the argument on its own terms, not yours.
I haven’t outright said that I think casuals are mediocre. That was mentioned from the overwhelming viewpoint of hardcore raiders. While, I might arguably fit into that category, it doesn’t follow that I necessarily subscribe to their views. I might, or I might not. The point is that from my writing, you can’t know that.
Jayjay and Demo:
A job, have a life? These are all non sequiturs. I have in my life somehow managed to earn at least 2 PhDs, and I’m capable of raiding. I don’t see how your dimwitted argument holds up to scrutiny. Or is it your own limitation that you’re only capable of doing one thing with any modicum of success? That is, of course, if having any job is a mark of success. It’s fortunate that the remainder of the world isn’t constrained by your own limitations.
It’s also worth nothing that those who strive for excellence in some regard generally do so in more than one respect. It’s a mindset, not a happenstance. Which is to say, of course, that while many of us strive for our own estimation of excellence in a video game, it’s disingenuous to suggest that outside of such game we’re completely inept, barely managing not to get killed by passing cars. The implication speaks to your own set of limitations; it’s uninformative about the limitations of anyone else.
So, I’m happy you have a job. But that’s hardly a cause for praise considering that the overwhelming majority of humans manage to have a job at some point.
So, if the presence of just having a job isn’t what’s at issue because anyone can get a job, then we have to examine the nature of the job and its relative importance overall. This is a tone I don’t much like. Why do you feel it necessary to draw artificial lines of distinction between your having a job and our playing a video game?
If it were the case that playing video games well excluded having a job, you might have a point. But it doesn’t. In other words, you’re blowing smoke. I’d appreciate if you found someone else’s ass to blow it up. Thanks in advance.
No, I don’t own the gear. Is this supposed to be some revelation? I haven’t yet met a person who’s of the mind that his toon’s gear is indeed his own, and that it’s physically real outside of the game. Indeed, we’re aware that the importance of the gear stops at the ambit of the game. What’s your point though?
It seems to me that you’re one of those people in life who’s convinced himself that because what he feels is important so too it follows that what you think is important. Such isn’t the case. Indeed, I’m hard-pressed to find an example of how anything was furthered by the attitude you take, which is essentially that: it’s hard, and I already do one hard thing in life, so I can’t. That might suit you, and if it does and you’re happy, then congratulations on reaching self-actualization. For many other people in the world, though, what is adequate for you is wholly insufficient. I’m in such a case. I don’t begrudge you your own happiness, but you seem to begrudge me mine. For instance my little “raid thingies” are the little, petty concerns which drive the bulk of all WoW content. The other is arena. The rest of the stuff isn’t a focus of the game, and it’s there to add flavor and depth.
If just sampling it is what makes your gaming experience complete, have at it. But that’s woeful inadequate for, well, the vast majority of players. WoW isn’t so successful because people want to run around the cities playing dress-up, but it can be fun to do when one isn’t doing the other things in the game.
You also seem to have a very bad understanding of what it takes to raid. I don’t grind for hours a week for my raids.
Jas09:
No, I don’t consider that a full raid group of people who are geared in 10 man Naxx gear will successfully raid in Ulduar. Even with the nerfs, much of the content is beyond the gear of 10 man Naxx. And that makes sense. It would defeat the idea of progression for the next level of progression content to be the same as that which came before.
I’m sorry; I didn’t realize you were going to redefine the last fight possible in the instance as actually not part and parcel of the instance. That you consider him to be just another hard mode boss isn’t an absolute determination of his purpose. He is part of the instance, whether you define him that way or not.
There are several reasons that the fights are continually being nerfed; it’s largely driven by the fact the game is meant to make money. It’s easier to make money if they constantly reduce the difficulty of things so as to include more people. The other aspect is that they intentionally overtune the fights in the start. They do this to appease what is the base of the raiding core: raiders, not casuals. Also, it’s for pride and bragging rights.
That other people are eventually let in by them dumbing down the fights is a practical business decision. But even with the nerfs, people are still wiping on Flame Leviathan, with no towers up. Derive from that what you choose.
Bosstone:
What if they never want to level up past level 1 and just want to run around a starting city flirting with NPCs? There comes a point when one has to objectively look at the goals of the game, and the gear of the people in it. While it’s true that some people’s gear is sufficient for their purposes, it doesn’t follow that their gear is great, or isn’t, as I said, crappy.
Where one wants to draw that line is arbitrary to a large degree. But it isn’t without merit to look at a level 80 wearing level 70ish gear and decide that his gear is objectively shit. Whether one man’s trash is another man’s treasure isn’t something that I should have to discuss with the person in question before being able to conclude that in an objective way this person’s gear has no potential to assist the overwhelming population of level 80s characters.
If you’re offended by that, then you can easily just whisper everyone and tell them that your gear choice is your own and serves your needs, or you could simply do better. As it stands, I’m not going to bat an eye when I label someone’s gear as decidedly shitty simply because they might happen to have a peculiar way of playing the game which is independent of gear entirely. That isn’t the assumption of the game, and I decline the invitation to accept that as the majority opinion and goal. Besides which is the case that if the person’s motivation is to simply play the market and farm, why then do they bother to level up to max level? That they’re a level 80 kind of implies that they do play with some degree of separation from crap to not crap. Largely because much of the content they want to farm can’t be farmed in the crappy gear Blizzard hands out to the unimportant toons: read as the ones below max level.
Your argument might be valid if the game were designed around level 42s, or level 79s. But it isn’t. It’s designed around what can be done at max level, which is why there aren’t any raid dungeons designed for people who want to stay level 19.
If it happens that this person really loves to do Burning Crusade content only, then his gear is just fine. If he’s trying to play Northrend content, then it’s crap. It all depends on what he’s trying to do.
Why on earth would I do that, unless they approached me first? And if I got approached by a stranger who said, without provocation, that my gear was shit, then I’d probably reach for the /ignore button instead of passively mewl like you seem to think. I don’t actually care about random people in game, or their opinions.
You say you’re just coming from the raider’s perspective, but your arrogance is still coming through loud and clear.
If you were sincere in your assertion that you wouldn’t respond to a random person talking about your gear, then I can only wonder why you’d respond to a person who was originally not even specifically addressing you. But, we’ll go with your story.
I realize you’re working under the dual existence mindset: the gear is what it is based upon its use. And as I’ve said, which you manage to gloss over since it doesn’t fit your poor understanding, if that’s what someone wants to do, that’s fine. And if it’s fine with their guild, then it’s gravy. I suppose I might have to type that out several times so that you’ll be able to eventually understand it. But as an objective assessment, based upon the major thrust of the game, level 70 gear on a level 80 guy is crappy. It’s also worth nothing that your argument fails for one major reason: to make it to level 80, one must necessarily do Northrend content, for which level 70 gear is substandard. Yeah, apparently it’s arrogant to take note of that which is extremely obvious.
I didn’t make an argument, I was insulting you, did you miss the warning that made that clear? And it obviously holds true, considering you’re not only continuing to condescend to people but also hiding behind the cloak of “what hardcore raiders say” and not standing by your original insults. Congratulations on your PhDs, like raiding, they show that you have chosen to put in a certain amount of time into something. Since other people don’t choose to spend that amount of time getting PhDs, does that make them mediocre as well? No, I suppose most people can only manage to barely hold down a job in your opinion. Your bragging and elitism aren’t helping your arguments by any means. Why don’t you come back when you can offer some helpful advice about WoW (which is what this thread is supposed to be about) instead of wanking your e-peen and telling the vast majority of the player base that “skill, progress, and ability are all useless attributes” to us?
Because this was a pretty pleasant conversation until you dropped in your ‘objective assessments’.
“It’s okay to suck” isn’t exactly being pleasant and cnversational. (Yes, yes, you never actually typed that, but it’s what’s coming through loud and clear.)
You state this as though there is such a thing as an objective assessment. I contend there isn’t. You’re still making one big assumption, that he’s doing level 80 high end content.
It’s also worth noting that you brought this hypothetical 80 up. Don’t blame me if he doesn’t make any sense.
Maybe your hypothetical really likes his full set of level 70 epics that he worked hard to get but are now shit. Maybe he ran through Lich King to get the levels and used quest reward gear to do so, then put on his epics and went back to Burning Crusade content. The point is you don’t know what he’s up to when you see him in Dalaran or Stormwind or Orgrimmar, so why assume? If the gear he has on works for him, then it works for him. If it doesn’t work for him, then maybe he’s working on changing that.
And hey, if he did work through Northrend and got to 80 using only his level 70 gear, I’d say that makes him pretty damn skilled at this game and probably deserves a little more respect than ‘lol crap gear d00d’.
Actually, not that I’m not with you on most of what you’re saying, Bosstone, but it wouldn’t make someone particularly skilled to level to 80 in 70 gear. I leveled three toons to 80 and they mostly wore lvl 70 pvp epics the whole time. Not very impressive since by ashman’s standards I am a mediocre player.
A thousand pardons. I was being charitable to you by calling it an argument. I’ll be sure to make no future mistakes of that ilk.
My reference to my PhDs, in case you missed the obvious, wasn’t out of the blue. It was an example, a counter-point, to some idiot’s assertion that playing WoW or being successful in life are binary, and mutually exclusive. Since at least one person in the world of whom I’m aware can do both well, his “argument” fails.
Likewise, you may sit around and misconstrue anything you’d like, and ascribe to anyone what you choose; however, that doesn’t really do much. I sure hope you feel better, though. I guess that just prattling out mindless insults is somehow cathartic for you. I base this entirely on our interaction here, which for your part has been devoid of reasoning. Is insulting people the best you can do, or are you capable of making an actual argument based on, well, ya know, what is as opposed to what you want to be?
I made no assumption about this hypothetical level 80 doing end-game stuff. Indeed, anyone with a moderately advanced third grade reading level should be able to immediately take note that the sentence actually went something like: to get to level 80 one must do Northrend content. Please explain, in your infinite wisdom, how that assumes end-game content? Is it your assertion that Northrend content per se is end-game content? That’s the only “reasonable” basis upon which your assertion can stand. Unfortunately, it stands in contradiction to all the available data. <sad face>
I have more than once said that if people want to run around in cities wearing dresses, or not raid, or whatever to enhance their gaming experience, then that’s fine. Somehow that translates into me being a big meanie. One would think the error of your thinking would yawn before you: clearly, that’s not the case.
I got my Felhunter last night - 2 hours! 2 long hours including a stupid point where I had to go to a quest giver in Undercity who sent me to Ratchet who sent me back to Undercity who gave me two get item tasks one of which was in Thousand Needles. Then back to Hillsbrad then Undercity then Wetlands and finally Ratchet. I appreciate that Blizzard want to make these class quests quite epic but that’s a lot of travelling.
I also joined a Horde guild for the first time, so far so good though the name ‘Blood Angels of Honour’ made me think twice to be honest. Friendly bunch though.
As a newish WoW player I had heard that (some? most?) hardcore raiders were a strange bunch and I’d like to thank ashman165 for showing me why. I have no idea how an adult can get so emotionally attached to a video game. No kids I take it?
Raiding probably not for me then, I’ll get my two current toons to 80 then start another one a Foresaken rogue probably. Maybe a female this time as I want to run around Dalaran in a pretty hat that sounds fun!
Quasi just so you know I can’t follow most of the current discussion about gear (what is a tier piece for example??) and so on either. I have no idea how you pick up the lingo either.
You have to go get Van Cleef as soon as possible it’s a great fight early on and where you fight him is pretty cool. (especially if you like the film the Goonies)
Not that it’s particularly relevant, but I have three children.
No more relevant is the fact that I’m not emotionally attached to the game. I am, however, attached to having things which I find recreational. This particular video game fits that bill. So do other things.
It’s also worth noting that a mild increase in reading comprehension would have lead one to the obvious clause within which I explicitly spelled out that many hardcore raiders have the mindset as an antecedent to the part within which I delineated the general thrust of said mindset.
It’s also worth noting that the same increase in reading comprehension would have revealed that I may or may not share the same mindset. You simply don’t know what I actually think in my own right as I haven’t outright stated my own thoughts on it. That’s because it isn’t relevant what I think since I’m not the general body of so-called hardcore raiders.
Indeed, I explicitly proffered that I could arguably be considered one. The logical implication is that I can also arguably be not considered one, which is to say that my particular status is intentionally ambiguous.
One wonders how such obvious concepts of logic can be so elusive.
Probably because I am stupid, all those big words you use do excite me a bit though. Carry on not getting emotionally attached while taking all this rather too seriously.
And get yourself to Dalaran to wear a pretty hat you might enjoy it.
Well, since I have the achievement title “Bloodsail Admiral”, it follows that I have a spiffy hat, as is required for my guild, Scurvy Dogs, for obvious reasons.
It is some convoluted kind of reasoning which has induced you to think that advocacy of a position requires some emotional attachment to the idea or position.
One wonders how this would manifest itself in daily life when discussing such things as the weather. “It’s going to rain today.”
“No it isn’t! It’s going to be sunny all day, goddammit.”
“No, really. It’s going to rain today. My proof is that it’s raining right now and was raining several moments ago. Thus, it will continue to rain today as it is doing now. QED.”
“You’re only saying that because you want it to rain; your emotions have defiled your logic!”
“No, really. It’s going to rain today. My proof is that . . .
I’ve been here before and I don’t much care for this circle. Good day; enjoy the rain.”
That’s just one example from looking out my window. I’m sure there are literally an infinite number of examples one could reduce to writing which would well-flesh out this point. To recap: advocacy of a position doesn’t necessarily require an emotional attachment to it; your absurd argument notwithstanding even trivial scrutiny, has twice now been refuted. Of course, I’m sure that this logic will be of no use since it will clearly be the case I somehow have an emotional connection to it. You are, after all, that very important in my life.
If you have any other problems discerning reality from your imaginings, feel free to PM me for some help sorting them through. We’ve gone a bit too far afield from the topic at hand; as such, I will no longer entertain these this rejoinder you seem to need to perpetuate.
