Much more of Sanderson’s ‘voice’ came through in this book. You can really tell there were more gaps to fill. Mat has become his character and other characters feel like they’ve drifted somewhat. There was a weird dignity and formality in all the characters that seems to be sliding away. It’s not totally a bad thing it gives some characters a touch more of humanity then before. Though the comments on Lan were correct. What a whiner.
I dunno, she’s been second only to Demandred as far as incognito, havoc-wreaking Forsaken. When I first posted, I suppose I was disappointed about who she ended up being identified as, but the more I thought about it, the less I cared. I mean, who was she supposed to be revealed to be? In a way, her identity didn’t matter so much as her ability to remain incognito so long. Although…
Didn’t it seem sort of abrupt how it was suddenly revealed in this book, through some off-screen digging through the archives, that Mesaana was more of a hands-on Forsaken, not a behind-the-scenes manipulator like Mogheiden? It didn’t really square too well with what Messana had been doing throughout the series to this point!
And now that I’ve thought about it more, it wasn’t Mesaana’s true identity that bugs me now, but rather the “outwilling” you mention.
[spoiler]Egwene outwills Mesaana. Hrm, OK, maybe. I thought Mesaana was supposed to be some bad ass in Tel’aran’rhiod (or was that just Mogheiden? I thought both). Someone with decades of practice. But fine, Egwene’s a Dreamer, so I guess she can win that battle with only a year or two of Tel’aran’rhiod practice. But the problem with that is that Perrin laughingly sloughed off Egwene’s restraints, and he’s only had a couple of chapters practice at manipulating the Dream World. And Perrin escaped Egwene’s restraints twice. First time, fine, Eggy just wasn’t trying that hard, because she’s Queen Shit of the Dream World. But the second time, surely she put some effort into it. But it didn’t even make Perrin bat an eyelash.
So the problem I have now is that Egwene > Mesaana, but Perrin >> Egwene. And – AND – Slayer > Perrin, really. So shouldn’t Slayer be King Shit of Tel’aran’rhiod, instead of Graendal’s Bitch Boy, responsible for naught but keeping the Dreamspike in one place and maybe killing a couple of wolves, too?
I mean, I get that one of the themes is that the Forsaken are kinda overhyped. It’s cool, and I dig it. But there’s overhyped, and then there’s Mesaana, whose powers frankly pale in comparison to Perrin’s (and Slayer’s).
Eh. The whole sequence was cool, but that somewhat weak resolution left a bad taste in my mouth, is what I’m saying.[/spoiler]
I’m also looking forward to something magnificent going down with Mazrim Taim and the Black Tower. I hope it gets more than a chapter.
I’m not going to spoil this because it is just speculation on my part, but it is looking to me like Taim’s “private lessons” involve 13 myrrdraals and 13 channelers and are turning the poor sods to the shadow. Wonder if it is reversible?
On delivery; Amazon delivered my copy on Friday (5th); given that I’d opted for free delivery, and that their estimated delivery time was today (8th) I’m not dissatisfied.
Overall, I liked the book, but I kept waiting for the visit to the Tower of Ghenjei, and it kept not happening.
On the Death of Asmodean.That Graendal killed him is revealed in the epilogue, indirectly. Shadar Haran says that “three Chosen” were destroyed by her actions. Two (Aran’gar and Mesaana) we know about from this book. Of the remaining Forsaken, the only one we don’t know the killer of is Asmodean.The mystery is simply that Jordan, when asked, only ever said that it “should be obvious” who killed Asmodean. (There was a really good analysis on the old WoT FAQ that came to the right conclusion, after proving that the really really “obvious” suspect could not have done it on account of being dead.Or perhaps that should be “dead”..
I find myself agreeing with OAOW; the “private lessons” at the Black Tower are with 13 Dreadlords and 13 Myrdraal. I hadn’t thought of that, but it makes all kinds of sense (including giving a point to the fact that channelers can be converted, first revealed in book 3.)
on the Tower of Ghenjei topic
[spoiler]I was really disappointed with the Noal/Jain Farstrider resolution.
Where has he been the last few years?
For what was he making restitution by staying behind (The “died clean” thing)
He just seems to have been a pointless inclusion in this series. He may as well have beenleft as a mythical character.
[/spoiler]
I’d have to reread the series, but my current guess.Jain Farstrider may have helped cause the fall of Malkier in some indirect way, by doing things that led Isam’s parents to the Shadow.
A topic of my own.[spoiler]Does anyone think that Egwene may be the reincarnation of Latra Posae Decume?
Latra Posae was the leader of a faction that argued the plan to seal the Bore was too risky. This plan required a circle of six men and seven women of above average strength and, by securing the agreement of every female channeler on the side of the Light, prevented this circle from being formed. The agreement became known as the “fateful concord.” This refusal persisted even after every proposed alternative plan became impossible, so Lews Therin led a force of 114 male channellers to do it.
We now know from TGS that the counterstroke that tainted saidin was only possible because saidin was touched to the Dark One. If a single circle had performed the operation, the Power was highly unlikely to have touched the Dark One directly.
And now, Rand proposes that it is necessary to destroy the seals (“clear the rubble”) and Egwene’s kneejerk reaction is that this is wrong. No attempt to analyse it; just “he must not do it, and I’ll organise everyone else to oppose him so he’ll see he is wrong.”[/spoiler]Thoughts?
I sort of agree. What Sanderson did was rekindle the interest a LOT of people had in the series by actually MAKING THINGS HAPPEN. On the other hand, I really noticed lots of phrasing in this book that made me think, “How did the proofer miss what a terrible sentence this is?”.
Are you kidding me? Shit, I guess that’s one reason I should have read the glossary. God damn, that is bad. Actually, now that I’ve stormed into the living room to check the glossary…
It also says that she was responsible for the deaths of Aran’gar and Messana. Didn’t those happen in this book?
Umm…since when should the glossary tell us what is going to happen in the book - assuming people read it ahead of time, or had looked up a particular character when they got mentioned?
It was chilling. When I first saw it was an Avhienda chapter, I was like, “Oh shit, this is gonna suck”. I feel about her the same way most feel about Nynaeve. But it was awesome, in a horrible way.
Couldn’t agree more. The part with them running back and forth from room A to room B felt like something from a D&D adventure when the DM realizes they forgot to flesh out a piece of the dungeon. And their casualty seemed rushed, though the choice of who it had to be was logical.
I’d like to add option 3A - the guy is finishing Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time series. Unless the guy has been living in a cave he knows the two biggest complaints about the series - “Jordan is Milking it” and “Enough of the endless descriptions, particularly about fucking dresses”. He’s clearly taken it to heart and as he’s addressed both of them.
Nah. What we’re seeing there is clearly a Taim coup using either Compulsion or, more likely, the “13 channelers and 13 Mydraal can convert people to the Shadow”. When was the last time that got mentioned? Rand is going to have a shitload of channelers available to him. The Bad Guys are going to need some to match them, aren’t they? A hundred Black Ajah aren’t going to cut it.
My big question is what’s going to happen with the Seanchan? It seems like there’s two possibilities as far as the last book goes. Either they’ve basically been written out and won’t have much impact, or they’re going to take a shot at the White Tower while Rand has the world’s biggest hammer with all his armies gathered in one place. Once the attack starts he can crush them.
Or, even better, Elaidia (I hate it when a character is never right and is nothing but a big negative) manages to redeem herself in the smallest way and actually opens up everyone’s gateways into the Black Tower. That would be pretty awesome.
(And then I make it through the thread and notice the 13/13 has already been pointed out…only 12 hours ago. CURSE YOU!)
-Joe
Update for those who cared about E-books : Looks like Feb 2011 now, not November.
Well, yeah, but we also have a cool little set of minor characters put in an impossible situation. Are they going to make it out? How are they going to give us the reveal of exactly which of the “Taim is evil and recruiting for the Shadow” variants it’s going to be? What the hell is Logain up to? It’s a cool little sidebar, IMO.
And what is going to be the context of Rand’s kneeling before the Crystal Throne - alternately, who has a prophecy that is either really wrong, or being interpreted really wrong?
Even with Sanderson tying off plot threads at the speed of light, there’s still a TON of stuff to get through. Should be fun.
Since there’s no a crazy amount of discussion here I’d been checking Dragonmount. Apparently, if you dig deep enough, you’ll find that a lot of the Seanchan prophecies match up pretty well with the Shadow prophecies - the idea being that someone (probably semi-Bound Ishmael) tampered with the Seanchan prophecies over the last thousand years to cause Rand even more headaches when the time came.
I just hope the Seanchan not a dangling plot thread at the end of this. With what we saw from Avihenda, and the fact that the ultimate fate of the Aiel has been a pretty big deal, it had better not be.
-Joe
I want to see that remnant of a remnant saved, not degraded into savagery!
It’ll be interesting to see what will happen with her viewing. I’m quite disappointed she didn’t get a chance to tell the wise ones what she saw in this book. But hopefully we’ll see that next book. I want to see their reaction. Though I worry it will happen offscreen. Too many conversations I’ve looked forward to in the series have.
But from here there’s really only two ways it can go. Either something directly contradicts her viewing or not. If not than it’s left ambiguous whether what she saw will happen or not, but I’d say the smart money’s on it will. If something does contradict it then we know the future may not turn out that bad, but still could anyway. I’m betting it’ll be the former. I’d could totally see RJ wanting to end the series on the depressing idea of the Seanchan taking over all of Randland. And I really wish they’d name the damned continent the majority of the story takes place on.
Anyone know the status of the outrigger novels and other prequels? Last I heard Sanderson didn’t want them made but if Tor & Harriet were going to make them anyway he wanted to be the one to write them. But I don’t know that a definitive decision was ever made.
All I know is, if they go all STar Wars style EU I will be inclined to stick only wit the core novels and the RJ written prequel. An Exception would be considered for any books written from RJ outlines.
It might not be bad IF they managed to keep it all the same writer. A good chunk of the Star Wars problem is that they chose some truly shitty authors. Look at the mega-hack Anderson - he had to one-up everything from the original books.
At least if these books continue with a new author, and it’s KJA-level suck, they’ll die quickly.
-Joe
I didn’t even notice that the killer of Asmodean was revealed.
:dubious:
Otherwise, I enjoyed the book a fair amount.
This may be a bit heretical, but I feel the series is improved overall with Sanderson finishing it. The last time I enjoyed a WoT book as much as these two was over 15 years ago with Fires of Heaven. Lord of Chaos was still alright, but it was just downhill from there with a few bright spots. Reading this and the previous book really feels like I’m remembering what it was I liked about the series all those years ago.
I hope the series will get a decently long conclusion that covers a lot about the aftereffects of the final battle. I’d hate for it to just end with a climax, and not go into detail on what’s going to happen to all the different nations. I felt the Aviendha dreamsequence was the best part of this book.
RJ’s last one before he died, #11, was pretty enjoyable. It seemed he got back on track at the end of his life.
But the previous 4 sure sucked.
I too am enjoying Sanderson’s writings. I’ve been quite pleased with his other books, as has my wife.
Only because it was revealed in a throwaway line. And then I saw it mentioned in another forum that it was in the goddamned glossary. so I immediately grabbed the book and checked. W?T?F?
-Joe
I think the seanchan prophecy that the Dragon Reborn will kneel before the crystal throne is likely to be true (at least figuratively speaking). It seems to me that Rand/Lews Therin has discovered the meaning behind the title of Aes Sedai (i.e. servant of all) and acted accordingly through all of the book. I suspect we’ll see Rand bend the knee in a “I acknowledge you as my superior to serve the greater good” way rather than in a “I will obey your every whim” way. For parallels I direct your attention to Rand’s scene with Egwene.
I’m referring to the scene where Rand placed himself in Egwene’s “power” in the white tower. Although he was courteous, asked for permission, etc. and was shielded by a circle of linked Aes Sedai it was strongly implied that he was in no way actually constrained.
Maybe, but I kinda hope not. The Seanchan are a real problem. They need dealing with before Aviendha’s “dream quest” becomes reality.
Though I will admit the Aiel played a big part in their own downfall.